Irish topic

[Tribesman]

Due to requests
The Rossport 5 ; 92 days in jail so far for contempt of court .
Their contempt , to refuse to allow contactors onto their land to construct an as yet unauthorised Gas pipeline .
http://www.shellfacts.com/News_Shell...05.html#photos
Unless they allow this illegal and dangerous development to take place they will remain in prison , seemingly for ever .

edit for another linkhttp://www.corribsos.com/index.php?id=1&type=page

[BDC]

Some judge is under the pay of Shell...

[Don Corleone]

I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough w/ your Constitution to understand just what rights they may or may not have under your defintion of eminent domain. That being said, I always default to being on the side of the property owners, so I shall indeed have to do some reading to see how your government is abusing these poor landowners.

[Tribesman]

so I shall indeed have to do some reading to see how your government is abusing these poor landowners.
Don , 4 of them are farmers , there is no such thing as a poor farmer , they are just very clever at hiding their money

[Duke Malcolm]

Oh yes, farmers are, especially with the cushtie EU money. A friend of my aunt's bought several cows just so that he could get money from the EU later for getting rid of the cows. Also, my auntie owns two goats for legal purposes, i.e. the handy hand-outs from the EU...

[Don Corleone]

Okay, you had me until I saw the guy in the Bush t-shirt. That was you, Tribesman, admit it! ~

Just kidding. Well protests are all well and good for making the news, but if you really want to put the screws to Shell:

1) organize a nationwide boycott. Ask other nations, including the USA, to quit buying their gas (consider me on board at this point)

2) send letters to the members of their board informing them of the boycott (once it's underway)

3) if you have any sort of impeachment/recall power over your MDs, start a recall petition against the MP for Mayo. Inform him/her as long as he continues to be Shell's patsy, he's not representing his people.

4) contact BP and Exxon/Mobile. You'd be surprised what one large corporation might be willing to do to stick it to one of their larger competitors.

Like I said, I don't understand your eminent domain laws, but it sounds like this Judge Finneran is way out on a limb. Perhaps time to take a lawyer on and ask for the local judicial oversight board to take a look?

[Don Corleone]

so I shall indeed have to do some reading to see how your government is abusing these poor landowners.
Don , 4 of them are farmers , there is no such thing as a poor farmer , they are just very clever at hiding their money

I was trying to be glib and using a little propaganda. If they're having their property rights stripped by a renegade judge on the payroll of Shell, they're poor. And don't forget to post pictures of their poor children, waiting for Daddy to come home.

[Tribesman]

Okay, you had me until I saw the guy in the Bush t-shirt. That was you, Tribesman, admit it! ~
A T-shirt in the West of Ireland , you must be mad , what about the weather .
Though I might be in the photos of one of the Galway marches , I havn't looked .

1) organize a nationwide boycott. Ask other nations, including the USA, to quit buying their gas (consider me on board at this point)
Hey we invented the word
The boycotts on at most petrol stations , though you know what people are like , the company drops the price a few cents/litre and people go and buy it .

2) send letters to the members of their board informing them of the boycott (once it's underway)
Done it , though I didn't go to the bother of attending their annual board and shareholders meetings

3) if you have any sort of impeachment/recall power over your MDs, start a recall petition against the MP for Mayo. Inform him/her as long as he continues to be Shell's patsy, he's not representing his people.
I think thats Cooper/Flynn , so corrupt and seemingly immune over even openly criminal actions she cares just about as much as her father did

4) contact BP and Exxon/Mobile. You'd be surprised what one large corporation might be willing to do to stick it to one of their larger competitors.
Why would they be interested , it is only offering a 100% profit over 30 years , and that is only if they use third world dangerous methods , if they do it safely there is little financial incentive .

Oh yes, farmers are, especially with the cushtie EU money. A friend of my aunt's bought several cows just so that he could get money from the EU later for getting rid of the cows. Also, my auntie owns two goats for legal purposes, i.e. the handy hand-outs from the EU...
Malcolm ; the Foot and Mouth was the downfall of many of these farmers .
It is very hard to bring your friends flock of sheep onto your land so you are entitled to payments when your friend is not allowed to move his sheep .
It exposed many many farmers who had been getting headage payments , yet had never owned a single sheep , let alone the hundreds that they were claiming for

[lugh]

Ok, here's the thing. They were in contempt of court for refusing to undertake not to interfere with a governmentally approved project. And they were jailed for it, because they broke the law, it's that simple. They are in jail for breaking the law, not for protesting.

Now that said, I don't agree with the terms of contact agreed with Shell, they're a relic of previous decades when governments were bending over backwards to get any kind of inward investment just to get people off the dole queue. Nowadays, especially in the oil market, with demand being so high, it's the governements who have the companies over the barrel but some little bureacrat in Dublin decided it was too much to draw up a new contract and just handed out a near carbon copy of one from the 70-80s.
However, it's good to hear that the Danish government (a new left wing alliance I beleive) is taking an interest in the issue and a representative from the Irish labour party has received promises that it will be raised in the parliament by the Danish Labour party.

[Grey_Fox]

They broke the law and the Courts did what Bunracht na hEireann demands of people that show contempt for it. It is not Shell that threw into the jail, it was themselves. They knowingly and willingly broke the law, and quite frankly they deserve it.

And the Sinn Féin have jumped on this bandwagon now. Kind of suitable, terrorists standing up for the rights of criminals.

[Tribesman]

Ok, here's the thing. They were in contempt of court for refusing to undertake not to interfere with a governmentally approved project.
A project that isn't yet approved as it is still under appeal before the courts . And the section of pipeline involved was constructed without permission .

They knowingly and willingl broke the law, and quite frankly they deserve it.
Would you permit a high pressure welded gas line to pass through your property ?

they're a relic of previous decades when governments were bending over backwards to get any kind of inward investment just to get people off the dole
What do you mean previous decades ? They are still doing it , or don't you consider the 10 year tax free incentive to be bending over backwards ?
Especially as after the 10 years is up the companies just up and leave , letting the tax payer pick up the redundancy bill . How many have gone this year alone once the 10 years was up , let alone all those that have gone in the past few years ?
Someone is getting bent over and shafted and it isn't the politicians , it is the tax-payer .

And the Sinn Féin have jumped on this bandwagon now. Kind of suitable, terrorists standing up for the rights of criminals.
Oh yes , and everone knows that the current government are not criminals

[Grey_Fox]

Would you permit a high pressure welded gas line to pass through your property?

Whether I agree or not with them is irrelevent, the fact is they broke a court injunction. They have the option of taking legal action against Shell or the Government, which option they decided against in favour of a sensationalist action which cost them their freedom (for a short time).

Oh yes , and everone knows that the current government are not criminals

Every government has less than reputable members, Sinn Féin on the other hand are part of a terrorist organisation that flagrantly breaks the laws of two nations on a regular and frequent basis and has condoned the murder of over 3000 people.

[Don Corleone]

Okay, there must be more to this story then I got from the links. What are these 70's era contracts that came up? Did the ROI government sell the land out from under the rightful owners to Shell? Well, there's only one thing to do... take the ROI government to the EU court for fraud. They sold something they didn't have the right to and should be forced to 1) return the money to Shell 2) pay restitution for trouble caused.

[Grey_Fox]

That would have been the right thing to do Corleone after exhausting all legal courses of action in this country, not this stupid sensationalist act.

In case you don't know the Rossport Five have been released after an appeal to the High Courts.

[Don Corleone]

You misunderstand me, Grey Fox. SHELL should be taking the ROI to the EU courts, for failure to deliver. These farmers never should have been evicted. As the property is rightfully theirs, they have every right to resist construction projects begun by a 3rd party to whom they have not given permission. Shell should thank it's lucky stars none of their construction workers got hurt.

Let me put it in plain English... the farmers have every right to do whatever they need to to block any unauthorized use of their land (assuming they actually OWN the land and aren't tenant farmers to the government that is). Just because a bunch of charlatans at the Dail (sp?) told Shell they could have the land, doesn't mean Shell has the right to just go in and start building. As for this judge, it sounds like he should be removed from the bench.

[Grey_Fox]

Let me put it in plain English... the farmers have every right to do whatever they need to to block any unauthorized use of their land (assuming they actually OWN the land and aren't tenant farmers to the government that is). Just because a bunch of charlatans at the Dail (sp?) told Shell they could have the land, doesn't mean Shell has the right to just go in and start building. As for this judge, it sounds like he should be removed from the bench.

I think it's not actually on their land, just near to it.

The Courts are seperate from the government in this country, you can overturn the Government's decision in the Supreme Court. EU Supreme Court is higher still and should be used as a last resort.

We're not a bunch of dictators over here you know...

[Don Corleone]

Our courts can, and frequently DO tell the rest of the government what to do over here as well.

Now you have raised an interesting wrinkle. If the pipeline is going in on land 'adjacent' to theirs, tough luck. All I'm saying is that if the government reserves the right to come in and grant right of way priveleges to a 3rd party for economic gain of the 3rd party, the whole concept of private property means nothing.

Make no mistake about it, when the government resorts to this sort of thing, they're nationalizing resources, right up there with the most corrupt banana republics out there. This case actually isn't all that different than the landmark case here in the US, when SCOTUS announced your proprety rights are null and void, and your property is really available, at whim to your local government.

[Tribesman]

[B][In case you don't know the Rossport Five have been released after an appeal to the High Courts./B]
Temporarily released after Shell withdrew its injunction against them .
They still have to return to court in a month on the charges of contempt .

That would have been the right thing to do Corleone after exhausting all legal courses of action in this country, not this stupid sensationalist act.

That of course ignores the fact that such action would take a long time and a hell of a lot of money , and also that Shell was continuing the work despite court actions and government orders to stop and dismantle work already completed . If they refused to obey the laws of the land now then what makes you think that they would obey the laws of the land over some future descision that would be reached about 10 years after they had finished the work .
This "stupid sensationalist act" as you put it has partially worked . It has bought the campaign all the attention and support it needed and has made Shell agree to mediation and possible compromise .

We're not a bunch of dictators over here you know...
Thats funny , did you hear Bertie on the news tonight talking about the tunnel
I wonder if his threats apply to all the trucks that An Post bought

Every government has less than reputable members, Sinn Féin on the other hand are part of a terrorist organisation that flagrantly breaks the laws of two nations on a regular and frequent basis and has condoned the murder of over 3000 people.
Really , I didn't realise SinnFein/IRA were behind all of the 3000 deaths during the troubles , I wonder what the other factions and security services were doing during this time .
While we are on the subject , now that Sinn Fein have thrown away the guns should they not have exactly the same status as the two other main parties who used to be terrorists ?
Then again the old IRA never threw away their guns like the Provisionals have .

[Grey_Fox]

Really , I didn't realise SinnFein/IRA were behind all of the 3000 deaths during the troubles , I wonder what the other factions and security services were doing during this time .

Very well then, perhaps I'll say several hundred people were murdered directly by the IRA. That make it better?

While we are on the subject , now that Sinn Fein have thrown away the guns should they not have exactly the same status as the two other main parties who used to be terrorists ?
Then again the old IRA never threw away their guns like the Provisionals have

Do you recall what happened when the LDF disarmed? They bought more weapons from Croatia to replace them. I think I'll wait for the decomissioning bodies to report before praising them.

[Tribesman]

Very well then, perhaps I'll say several hundred people were murdered directly by the IRA. That make it better?
Unfortunately nothing makes it any better , more accurate maybe , yet another tragic episode in the history of this little island .
The only hope is to move forward .
Though I still see the same old faces trying to stop any progress .