Corruption...

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm moving this subject over from another thread. Corruption in France is big enough to warrant a thread of it's own.

WHEN Arthur de Villepin was caught by police following a drunken brawl in Paris, he knew there was only one man he needed to call - his father, the French prime minister.

In a show of political intervention which would be unthinkable in Britain, Dominique de Villepin spoke to the police officers who were holding his son and persuaded them not to take him into custody.

The police documents recording the incident, in a wealthy district of the French capital, have also allegedly gone missing.

But far from causing a political scandal as it might do in other countries, the story has merely caused ripples of amusement in the French press.

Link

The above pretty much sums it up.

The real shock of course lies not the intervention by the prime minister or the missing documents, but the last paragraph.

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it.

[BDC]

That's pretty bad. When our PM's son was picked up it was just all over the news. Poor guy.

[ah_dut]

That's pretty bad. When our PM's son was picked up it was just all over the news. Poor guy.

The guy was a fool, he deserved what he got (and yes, I used to know him...he did go to my school)

[Don Corleone]

Oh come on Louis, you can do better than that. George H. W. Bush had numerous cocaine trafficking charges against George W. Bush dismissed when he was a youth. Just ask Andrew Sullivan.

All kidding aside, this would be considered tame over here. The scandal would be if a politician let his son get hauled off to jail, tried and convicted. People would question his 'family values'.

You got anything on public figures sleeping with women other than their wives (or men for that matter?) The best political scandals in America are always sexual in nature. We're still rather puritanical like that.

[Kagemusha]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?

[Don Corleone]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?

Now this could sell copy here in the States...

[Crazed Rabbit]

You've got to have powerful relatives to get you out of a manslaughter charge of which you are obviously guilty. Just ask the senior Senator from Massachusetts.

Crazed Rabbit

[Adrian II]

You've got to have powerful relatives to get you out of a manslaughter charge of which you are obviously guilty. Just ask the senior Senator from Massachusetts.

Crazed Rabbit

That is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son...

[Adrian II]

Didn´t Miterrand have a daughter outside marriage?

That has nothing to do with corruption. Besides, our recently deceased prince Bernhard had no less than six daughters born our of wedlock.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh come on Louis, you can do better than that.

Hey, it's just last week's scandal. Pretty tame by French standards.

You got anything on public figures sleeping with women other than their wives (or men for that matter?)

Oui, et alors?

That's Mitterand displaying total indifference to journalists enquiring him about his illegitimate daughter with one of his mistresses. He gained a lot of popularity from it.
I didn't care either - we'll gladly leave sexual scandals to the puritan Americans.

[Adrian II]

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it.

Gérard Longuet, François Léotard, Alain Juppé, Robert Pandraud, Roland Dumas, Mitterrand/Kohl/Elf, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Michel Mouillot, Michel Noir, Bernard Tapie, Robert Hue, Jean Tiberi, Alain Carignon…

People do care, though. The number of French convictions on grounds of corruption has doubled in the past ten years.

[Louis VI the Fat]

People do care, though. The number of French convictions on grounds of corruption has doubled in the past ten years.

Yes, the tide seems to be turning:

In the past decade over 500 French politicians and businessmen have been investigated or convicted for corruption. Many of Les affaires, as the scandals are known, relate to illegal money-raising for political parties in the 1980s and 1990s. Jacques Chirac may have been among the worst culprits, though as France's president he is immune from prosecution. Alain Juppé, his former right-hand man and putative successor, was convicted in February 2004 of allowing party workers to be paid by the Paris treasury when he was treasurer, which has thrown Mr Chirac's party into disarray.

Other scandals concern Elf, a state-owned oil company used by François Mitterrand (president from 1981 to 1995) as a slush fund to lubricate foreign policy and fill friends' pockets. The fallout cost Dominique Strauss-Kahn, then finance minister, his job and sent Roland Dumas, a former foreign minister, his ex-mistress, and Alfred Sirven, a former Elf executive (who fled the country), to prison. (Though Mr Dumas was later cleared on appeal.) Add to this the scandalous collapse of Crédit Lyonnais, France's biggest state-owned bank, and some wonder if France is endemically corrupt. But allegations that officials in Toulouse, including the mayor, police and judges, were part of a murderous sex-ring has shocked even cynics.

Link.

[Tribesman]

That is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son...
Hey he is just like Thatchers son .

[Adrian II]

That is nothing, just ask Louis to elaborate on Mitterrand's son... Hey he is just like Thatchers son .

On the other hand, British politicians must be the most repressed of our little rogues' gallery. I mean Mitterand's daughter is a comely sight compared to the sights and sounds (as far as one imagines) of naked* politicians found dead in cupboards with self-made nooses around their necks or Paul Burrell's extraordinary reverse genuflexions in Her Majesty's service.


*Correction: Milligan was naked except for his stockings and suspenders

[Don Corleone]

Well, I'm going to skip the obvious Clinton & Kennedy references.

For your pleasure, we offer Gary Condit. Mr. Condit, a US representative from Modesto, CA was what's called a 'Blue-dog Democrat', socially liberal, fiscally conservative. When a family friend's daughter, Chandra Levy, came to work as an intern in his office, he promised his friends, Chandra's parents, to look after her. And boy did he ever. The father of two, he struck up an illicit relationship with the the then 18-year old Chandra. During a police investegation into her disappearance, the congressman gave several conflicting statements, including at one point saying he hadn't seen her in weeks. In fact, weeks after it could have been of use, he admitted that he had been with her the morning of her disappearance and was in fact the last person to see her alive. Her remains were found a year and a half later in a park in Northwest Washington DC. To date, no charges have ever been filed. Defining 'collassal gaul', Mr. Condit sought reelection in 2002, when he was defeated in the primary by his own former campaign manager, Dennis Cordoza. During the subsequent investegation into Chandra's disappearance, the DC police could not state enough that Rep. Condit was not a suspect. To this day, no charges have ever been filed.

[yesdachi]

When looking at corruption you must take into consideration that the US has 50 states each gets a governor, senators, and congressmen, plus a President, VP and a whole slew of other officials leaving us hundreds of opportunities to have corrupt officials. Another sad example of other countries not getting the same opportunities as the US . Size matters .

[Louis VI the Fat]

Okay, here's a list comparing levels of corruption. Sorry, I'm not going to clean it up, press the link below for a cleaner table.

Country Rank Country 2004
1 Finland 9,7 9.5 - 9.8 9 # # # # # # # # #
2 New Zealand 9,6 9.4 - 9.6 9 # # # # # # # # #
3 Denmark 9,5 9.3 - 9.7 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Iceland 9,5 9.4 - 9.7 8 # # # # # # # #
5 Singapore 9,3 9.2 - 9.4 13 # # # # # # # # # # # # #
6 Sweden 9,2 9.1 - 9.3 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
7 Switzerland 9,1 8.9 - 9.2 10 # # # # # # # # # #
8 Norway 8,9 8.6 - 9.1 9 # # # # # # # # #
9 Australia 8,8 8.4 - 9.1 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
10 Netherlands 8,7 8.5 - 8.9 10 # # # # # # # # # #
11 United Kingdom 8,6 8.4 - 8.8 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
12 Canada 8,5 8.1 - 8.9 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
13 Austria 8,4 8.1 - 8.8 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Luxembourg 8,4 8.0 - 8.9 7 # # # # # # #
15 Germany 8,2 8.0 - 8.5 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
16 Hong Kong 8,0 7.1 - 8.5 13 # # # # # # # # # # # # #
17 Belgium 7,5 7.1 - 8.0 10 # # # # # # # # # #
Ireland 7,5 7.2 - 7.9 10 # # # # # # # # # #
USA 7,5 6.9 - 8.0 14 # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
20 Chile 7,4 7.0 - 7.8 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
21 Barbados 7,3 6.6 - 7.6 3 # # #
22 France 7,1 6.6 - 7.6 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
Spain 7,1 6.7 - 7.4 11 # # # # # # # # # # #
24 Japan 6,9 6.2 - 7.4 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
25 Malta 6,8 5.3 - 8.2 4 # # # #
26 Israel 6,4 5.6 - 7.1 10 # # # # # # # # # #
27 Portugal 6,3 5.8 - 6.8 9 # # # # # # # # #
28 Uruguay 6,2 5.9 - 6.7 6 # # # # # #
29 Oman 6,1 5.1 - 6.8 5 # # # # #
United Arab Emirates 6,1 5.1 - 7.1 5 # # # # #
31 Botswana 6,0 5.3 - 6.8 7 # # # # # # #
Estonia 6,0 5.6 - 6.7 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
Slovenia 6,0 5.6 - 6.6 12 # # # # # # # # # # # #
34 Bahrain 5,8 5.5 - 6.2 5 # # # # #
35 Taiwan 5,6 5.2 - 6.1 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
36 Cyprus 5,4 5.0 - 5.8 4 # # # #
37 Jordan 5,3 4.6 - 5.9 9 # # # # # # # # #
38 Qatar 5,2 4.6 - 5.6 4 # # # #
39 Malaysia 5,0 4.5 - 5.6 15 # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #
Tunisia 5,0 4.5 - 5.6 7 # # # # # # #
41 Costa Rica 4,9 4.2 - 5.8 8 # # # # # # # #
42 Hungary 4,8 4.6 - 5.0 12 # # # # # # # # # #
Italy 4,8

Transparacy International

In so many respects, France (like Belgium) is distinctly Northern European. But when it comes to corruption, unfortunately the 'latin' side prevails.

I'm quite surprised that the US should be so low on that list. I expected it to be higher up, somewhere close to Australia and the UK. Odd.

And I knew about Italy being corrupt. But below Botswana, Tunisia and Costa Rica? Man...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Don, that story about Gary Condit is sickening.

Well, technically this thread is about French corruption, I just dragged it off topic. I'm not certain what sort of reform efforts you could pull off in France for these sorts of things. Do you guys even have the power to impeach sitting office holders?

If I'm not mistaken, impeachment is possible, but short of that they enjoy penal immunity while in office (is that the correct terminology?).


And please, feel free to talk about corruption anywhere.

Your misery makes me feel good!

(sorry, my lousy sense of humor again)

[Azi Tohak]

But isn't this normal for any modern country? Those in power, use that power, however they see fit. Part of why US presidents like to have a nice big stack of pardons on their desk the last day or two in office (personally, I think presidential pardons were a silly idea anyway).

I sympathize, but what would you like to do about it?

Azi

[Don Corleone]

Well, technically this thread is about French corruption, I just dragged it off topic. I'm not certain what sort of reform efforts you could pull off in France for these sorts of things. Do you guys even have the power to impeach sitting office holders?

[Soulforged]

I'm moving this subject over from another thread. Corruption in France is big enough to warrant a thread of it's own. Link

The above pretty much sums it up.

The real shock of course lies not the intervention by the prime minister or the missing documents, but the last paragraph.

Corruption is so endemic that nobody cares - or the other way round. In fact, if you do it well or in new imaginative ways people will respect you for it.

Well taking it into context this is nothing. But coming from Europe, well then it has some degree of history in it. Maybe the people look at here and look at our level of corruption and then they feel a little better when they look at their own country, just IMO.

[Byzantine Prince]

Albania

Argentina

Libya

Palestinian Authority

I thought Albania was more corrupt then PA.


What's this about, someone has been underestimating what a mess that country is.

[el_slapper]

For France's Corruption, judges are doing an excellent job hunting the bad guys. Problem is, voters don't care. Many politicians, as Patrick Balkany, who were far from office due to corruption guilty judgmeents, were elected back as soon as their time had come again. Usually with better scores than before. Yes, you did read it right, people condamned for corruption got better scores after..... we call it "prime à la casserolle", but I'm annoyed to translate it...

The lone that has problems with its past errors is Laurent Fabius. Some(but not much) remember that he was involved in the blood scandal, that gave AIDS to many hemophiles when he was prime minister. But all those who stole money have a better image : I guess a country has the politicians it deserves