So ...

[frogbeastegg]

... BI is out. I could have brought it twice already today, but I didn't even wander into the shop. A first time occurrence; I had all other TW games on UK release day.

The frog is wondering, is it worth it? Is BI good for the frog who dropped RTW in disgust shortly after 1.2, and didn't play the game outside of the rare bit of MP for the months before 1.2? It pains me to sit here and ask in a very weary tone if BI is worth it, but there we go, that's what I'm doing.

The main reasons for that disgust with RTW ... well, they are numerous. To go into the kind of depth I feel would be fair in explaining how precisely I feel about RTW (and there was plenty I liked! And loved! But mostly overshadowed or crushed underfoot by the bits I didn't) I would end up writing a several page long analysis. So I won't I'll sum up very broadly, and try not to feel absolutely rotten. Which I will, no matter how hard I try. Gah!

RTW was ... too easy (on battle map and campaign), too boring (mostly because it was too easy), felt like it needed another few months before 1.0 and another couple of patches after 1.2, missing too many features and doodads from the older games in the series, had too many silly little errors in files like the traits one. Then there's the famous save/load thingie. I'm a busy frog; a turn or two at a time is all I can manage. It's either that or I don't play. This only made my games even more mind numbingly easy. We won't mention the nice PR bomb that issue received, though it did a good job of hardening dislike into disgust and getting the game finally uninstalled, hope having died a rather messy death.

After reading threads like Kraxis' my attention is now pricked a very little. Actually, threads like that are the only reason I'm asking; before I wasn't interested enough to care.

It’s not ‘simple’ things like challenge I’m wanting from BI. Although I do want that too. I want … that feeling again. The magic returned. And all that other guff that is hard to word. I want something in the lineage of STW or VI. I want … I don’t want to be left feeling mine is the only faction on the campaign map, or that I am wasting my time, or that I should have waited for a discounted version or not bothered at all, or that the game could have been great if only, and all those other things I felt with RTW.

I want to like BI. No, I want to love it. But I wanted to love RTW too, and there are so many books out there a frog wants to buy, and only so much money and time ...

And someone tell me why I have this feeling I should wait a couple of weeks, then ask, so there is more time for bugs and issues to be spotted and for the initial gloss to wear off …. I’m getting very cynical in my old age. I feel very rotten now.

[Doug-Thompson]

It's not easy. It may become easy after I figure out how to properly manage a horde, but it's not easy now.

There's less map but many factions. There's more interaction, more conflict, less predictability. Your enemies and your friends are less clear-cut.

Battles are still easy, however, to anyone who knows what to do. I think we've all lost some battles we should have won, but only because we're not used to the changes yet.

Frankly, I'd like to know what you think but still would say: I'd wait if I was having doubts like yours. No, I did not have an overpowering feeling of a return to M:TW, only better. Some mechanics, the interface and even the look of the game have received substantial improvement, but it's still R:TW.

[Kekvit Irae]

To be quite honest, the reason why I havent bought BI is because I dont think it will live up to my expectations. I've been burnt out on RTW for a long time.
It's kinda sad, I have more interest in buying UO's new expansion than RTW: BI.

[The Stranger]

the sad thing is i cant play RTW cuz its not what i expected...and i cant play MTW anymore after seeing RTW

[Doug-Thompson]

Let me put it this way: My usual Total War "Blitz" strategy of wiping out a rival faction in the first few moves is definitely not working. If you do that now, they turn into a horde and kick your behind if they are a barbarian faction. If they are a civilized faction, they're too big to blitz — unless they're the Sassinids, perhaps. I'm tempted to take a unhistorical approach and blitz the Sassinids with the Huns.

[Kraxis]

Frog, my advise to you, and I know your 'issues' well enough, is to find a friend that has BI and ask to borrow it. You have to try it, then you can form your own oppinion of the game as it is now. It is very much better now, but it still a far cry from perfect.

It is more surprising and challenging now, but there are times when it is the same old.

I'm about to write a new topic about the AI in tactical mode. But that is only against the Huns. Take a look when I'm done, you might like it.

[econ21]

At the risk of being repetitive (I seem to say what I am about to say every other post), but have you tried Rome Total Realism, froggie? My BI has not been delivered yet, but I am having a blast with RTR 6.1. I also stopped playing RTW after 1.2 - I am not sure it was disgust, more like "yawn, this is too easy". I didn't even bother to try the BI demo. However, RTR definitely brought back that MTW feeling for me. The combat "feels" like MTW in terms of speed and balance of arms, the history feels more right and if you play it on VH campaign, it is no walk over. As Rome, I took 50 provinces and ended up fighting virtually every faction on the map - none of which I could deliver a knock out blow to. It was a blast.

BI sounds like fun, but it is with mods like RTR and EB that I think I will spend most of my TW time. I would say download RTR 6.1 (you can't argue with the price) and then decide if you have enough enthusiasm for BI.

[rebelscum]

BI is pushing RTW towards MTW, another 600 years of BI then were in the middle ages. I've been playing as ERE, and frankly I'm not too impressed, there are a few minor differences, battles seem a little more realistic playing VH/VH/Huge. The archery simulation of the horse archers is fun with arrows flying this way and that. The addition of religion does add another element to the game. But I can't wait for RTR to get hold of it.

[Garvanko]

Changes?

1. More micro-management.

2. The battles are more fluid and spectacular.

Its become a more strategic game, IMO.

[Bob the Insane]

BI is more like MTW than RTW was...

But you have to remember it is just an expansion and if you really disliked RTW I don't know if enough has changed to make you like it...

It is basically better than vanilla RTW on just about every level from the fixes to the new features to the way the AI acts. But is it better enough for you?? No idea...

[Steppe Merc]

Frog, I feel the same way. Well, I am mainly playing with EB, but I just can't imagine BI being worth it. Of course I'll buy it if we convert to it, but I can't imagine it being worth it on its own.

[PseRamesses]

Greetings Frogbeastegg,

My first game with BI was very confusing and a big... oh, no! Been playing daily, 5-6hrs, for well over a week now and I must admit it grows on me constantly. I think the battle AI has improved since unit deployments are better, generals not so suicidal and formations are held (to some extent) and it´s more STW or MTW than RTW ever was. I´ve faced fained retreats, flanking, tactical withdraws and an army that simply wouldn´t give up a hill! Haven´t seen that in ages.
I like the new feats like swiming units since it makes holding a river not that easy anymore and formations like shieldwall etc, it´s impossible to get through, he he, and I drool with exitement to assault a huge city - it´s simply massive - take my advice: skip time limits. Walls and towers are reaching the skies in some places and the cameras height is just enough topass over the top.
I hate the map. I hate the fact that Italy only has 4 provinces, and same with Spain and Turkey. I do hope RTR or EB is getting something out fast or I´ll go back to RTR 6.1 until they do. Conquering is slower due to rebellions and unrests so I guess that the devs didn´t think we would need so many regions to play with. I faced a huge dilemma as the Sassanids since my cities couldn´t accept 10-20.000 slaves from Antioch and the same from Jerusalem so I had only one choice "occupy" - jees! Took me ages to get loyalty up. Now I have a full stack of peasants as garrison-material in newly conquered provinces since I don´t want to get my precious soldiers killed. Mine, Katank (and others) blitzing days are over atleast when it comes to capturing a city with a different faith. It´s back to MTW but ten times worse.
Haven´t played the Huns or done any "hording" so I don´t know about that part but what I do like is that the migration and hording that is taking place really gets you into the feel of this particular era. IMHO BI is better than RTW and with a merge between RTR and BI this game will be better than MTW!

Like Kraxis said, borrow the game - it´s differen´t. I do feel that it´s more money worth than RTR but can get a whole lot better in the hands of our beloved modders.

[frogbeastegg]

:makes funny whimpering noise: Gah! There shouldn't even be any question over whether I get BI! But there is, and I'm no closer to deciding.

I either buy BI or don't play it at all; I know no one else who plays any of the series. If I buy it I can't return it even if it is the World's Worst Game Ever (which I know it isn't.).

:cough: My expectations for BI are non-existent. Oh, now I feel evil, really mean and evil. I mean more I couldn't scrub up the interest or hope to expect something good, but somehow can't quite bring myself to believe it will be rubbish. I hardly followed the previews and speculation. My demo experiences were, er, well I downloaded it and it sat on my desktop waiting to be installed for a few days. Then I finally decided to extract the zip file and found my primary hard drive was another casualty of the thunderstorm which fried my PC. When that was fixed I ignored it for a few more days, before actually installing it. I played for not even 10 minutes and quit, thinking it was more of the same and a very slow and jerky same at that, which reassured me not the slightest. Now over on .com I see people complaining of performance issues which aren’t there with RTW …

I didn't reach actual disgust until the reaction to the save/load issue first hit. Granted, it wasn't too pleasant on either side, but I didn't much appreciate The Shogun's response on the matter over at .com. Diplomatic it wasn't. Insulting, oh yes.

I did try RTR back around the old 4.0 days, but I didn't like it too much. Regardless of any mod's contents I will be playing a turn or two at once, and so still the AI factions will sit about doing next to nothing all the time. Until 1.3 appears and fixes that issue. But BI fixes it now. And so here we go again; back in the same circle of get or don’t get.

More of RTW I don't mind, even welcome, if it is RTW as it should have been, not RTW as it was. I.e. RTW without the bugs, issues and problems, and with challenge, properly supported, and backed up by a company which doesn't call its customers whiners.

Yes, BI is only an add-on. So was VI, and that really saved MTW for me with its shorter, more focused campaign.

One very small part of me wants to grab hold of the reports of harder campaigns and so on and go buy a copy in my lunch break tomorrow. But I simply can't do it. I can't go it on faith again.

It's really rather amusing, in a way. I've now got far more money than I did when the other TW games came out, yet this is the first time I've been reluctant to part with cash on the series.

[Doug-Thompson]

More of RTW I don't mind, even welcome, if it is RTW as it should have been, not RTW as it was. I.e. RTW without the bugs, issues and problems, and with challenge, properly supported, and backed up by a company which doesn't call its customers whiners.

Yes, this is R:TW as it should have been. That's something I can say without equivocating.

Bugs? Note the lack of "OhNOOOO Horrible (whatever) bug" threads.

Issues? Some. History fans aren't pleased by "Graal Knights" and so forth, but nothing nearly so ludicrous as Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century B.C.

To me, the biggest change for the better is that infantry, particularly spear-armed infantry, are no longer helpless before the rush of cavalry. It's a major concession to realism.

Challenge? Anybody who thinks this game lacks challege needs to play the Western Roman Empire.

Backed up by a company that doesn't call its customers whiners? I don't care what they call us as long as they concede our points and act upon them.

This expansion game fixes, improves, or at least takes a stab at every complaint about R:TW that can be addressed without fully rewriting the game: Unit speed, jumping horses, broken HA, diplomacy (although the changes are minor and might not be an improvement), balance, predictability, suicidal generals, AI that seemed to lack an instinct for self-preservation, etc., etc.

[Craterus]

Yes, this is R:TW as it should have been. That's something I can say without equivocating.

Bugs? Note the lack of "OhNOOOO Horrible (whatever) bug" threads.

Issues? Some. History fans are pleased by "Graal Knights" and so forth, but nothing nearly so ludicrous as Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century B.C.

To me, the biggest change for the better is that infantry, particularly spear-armed infantry, are no longer helpless before the rush of cavalry. It's a major concession to realism.

Challenge? Anybody who thinks this game lacks challege needs to play the Western Roman Empire.

Backed up by a company that doesn't call its customers whiners? I don't care what they call us as long as they concede our points and act upon them.

This expansion game fixes, improves, or at least takes a stab at every complaint about R:TW that can be addressed without fully rewriting game: Unit speed, jumping horses, broken HA, diplomacy (although the changes are minor and might not be an improvement), balance, predictability, suicidal generals, AI that seemed to lack an instinct for self-preservation, etc., etc.

Along with what I saw earlier, that has persuaded me.

BRING ON THE FRANKS!!!

[Aesculapius]

Oh, Froggy. I have no opinion at all on BI - it hasn't been released here yet and I haven't tried the demo. But from what you're saying, for goodness' sake buy it and try or you'll spend the rest of your life wondering what it might have been like.

“Make the choice adventurous stranger,
strike the bell and bide the danger
or wonder ‘til it drives you mad
what would have happened if you had.”

[The_Emperor]

If your after more of a challenge this will present it to you.

Compared to RTW this campaign is Hard and slower going. You never know when the next Horde will show its ugly face on your doorstep.

Unrest is a big issue, religious or otherwise.

The Western Roman Empire is itself so weak it practically falls apart like soggy toilet paper before the first Barbarian Horde is spotted over the horizon!

The fact that barbarian factions go Horde on you when you take their last town also adds a whole new dimension to the game... You cannot wipeout a faction with meagre forces anymore when they get 5-6 full army stacks appearing from nowhere.

RTW had its flaws but this has addressed them as best as can be done in an expansion.

For a simple expansion set, I think its done quite well.

[Mongoose]

I wonder how the new AI compares to the one in MTW. are they about the same now?

[Puzz3D]

Issues? Some. History fans aren't pleased by "Graal Knights" and so forth, but nothing nearly so ludicrous as Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century B.C.

How can you say it's RTW as it should have been? Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century B.C. shouldn't have been. Some of us are still waiting to play a decent RTW campaign, and it shouldn't require mods to do it.


Frogbeastegg,

There is always waiting for the v1.3 patch to see if the game achieves a high enought level of gameplay for you to enjoy it. Major problems such as load/save, suicide generals, cav/spear balance, AI holding a battleline when advancing and concentration of forces on the strategic map do seem to be fixed, but whether or not the long term campaign is a challenge remains to be seen. The reports by players that they can still win battles by huge margins doesn't sound promising because this has a big effect on the ability of the AI factions to present a decent challenge at the strategic level.

As far as MP goes, with all these different units and factions, this game is going to have individual units and factions which are more cost effective than the majority of units, and the only way around it will be to play using rules for purchasing armies.

As far as the BI campaign goes, I haven't seen anyone say it wasn't hard so far. The expansion does look like a solid effort, and I would expect CA to move ahead now with all resources devoted to the next project. I wouldn't expect any dramatic change in the way CA interacts with the community, but it is good to see that major community concerns about RTW were addessed. It just took a whole year to get to this point.

[Kraxis]

If your after more of a challenge this will present it to you.

Compared to RTW this campaign is Hard and slower going. You never know when the next Horde will show its ugly face on your doorstep.

Heh... As the ERE my entire northwest is basically black with devastation. When I still held control over Campus Iagyzes the devastation was half the lost money for that province. Then the repeated assaults and sieges drained the garrison so much it revolted (and created the Eastern Rebels). Now the Huns have settled there after starving the Rebels out. I moved my garrison to Dacia (and gave the local rebels a good kicking) to have a more secure border.
That was the second time I was thrown out of a borderprovince with no chance of getting it back soon after.

They are sneaky in that the Rebels get a fair army right away, but your own garrison is spared.

[Kekvit Irae]

I finally broke down and bought BI.
I'm so far impressed with what I see.

In one game with the Huns, my Hordes just completely overran Constantinople. However, I do see the problem of Hordes being way too powerful. If you take Britain from the WRE, that will trigger the spawning of the Romano British faction Horde, which will march on London. Unless you are prepared with a huge army, you will be quickly overrun.

Night battles are cute, but I have yet to see one where it's useful.

OMG! Shadows! No longer does marching through a forest look like you are marching through a bunch of 2D sticks in the ground. The shadows of the units and the forests REALLY make it a visual enjoyment.

The difficulty of playing the WRE can only be summed up in one quote:

I almost cried after turn 1.

If you are looking for a good challenge, or at least something refreshing, I suggest picking up BI.

[Kraxis]

Night battles are cute, but I have yet to see one where it's useful.

Two reasons, one more important than the other (you will have to guess which is what).
Firstly your enemy's troops suffer a small moralepenalty if you attack at night.
Secondly if you attack an enemy concentration of armies at night, only those that have the Trait can help the attacked army. Meaning you can single out enemy stacks and thus defeat the enemy in detail.

[Swordsman]

I have no complaints so far in my ERE campaign as to how the game is performing, but it just seems so "slow". I'm about 70 years in and really haven't had much happen. First campaign so I'm being conservative (forts at bridges/chokepoints, building up my cities, etc.), but the hordes are milling around aimlessly and I have yet to be attacked by anyone but the Sassanids-- and those are mostly probes.

Of course, you could argue that I should be taking the fight to 'em, but I figured to weather the first onslaught before counterattacking-- it just hasn't happened yet. Plus it seems very much a two-front war-- there's nothing going on in about 3/4 of my empire and no potential enemies except for the odd rebel army or two. Guess I had envisioned this massive empire beset from all sides. Sounds like the WRE is a whole different proposition, and it's only one campaign, but for me so far it's been quiet-- TOO quiet.

[Doug-Thompson]

How can you say it's RTW as it should have been? Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century B.C. shouldn't have been. Some of us are still waiting to play a decent RTW campaign, and it shouldn't require mods to do it.

No, the expansion does not fix the Egyptian chariots and shrieking women, etc., in R:TW. If I understood Froggie correctly, though, she was asking if the Barbarians campaign was as good and challenging as R:TW should have been. At least that's how I understood her question.

Clearly I agree with you about the silliness of Egyptian chariots in the 3rd Century, and can find quotes on other threads where I've said so many times, Puzz3D. Let me put it this way: If Barbarian Invasion had been the original game and R:TW the expansion, it seems there would have been no Egyptian chariots.

To be perfectly explicit:

Is the Barbarian Invasion campaign better, more challenging and plausible than the R:TW campaign?

Yes, much.

Are there considerable improvements to the tactical game that will help make the original R:TW game much better?

Yes. There have already been numerous examples, and I'm about to post another one. See my upcoming post about armor and archery.

Does the expansion solve the "hard-wired" in-the-design problems, such as Egyptian chariots, that spoil the fun of the original campaign for many who have some sense of history?

No.

Is Barbarian Invasion a seperate game -- more of an improved full-blown sequel than an expansion with a bonus game, ala Viking Invasion?

Yes.

Can you play the Barbarian Invasion campaign with a knowledege of history without feeling irritated by some of the liberties taken?

No.

Can you play the Barbarian Invasion campaign with a knowledge of history without feeling like you just landed in Oz?

Yes.

[Divinus Arma]

Although I have not bought it (because I am broke), I most certainly will. Sooner or later. Its TW! I can't let a TW title pass and not at least give it a shot.

I'll wait. Probably a few months. Get the wife to buy it for the holidays and such...


I care far more about EB then BI.

[Turin]

Hey Frog, nice work with the Princess Eleanor story, haven't read it all yet, but I love what I have seen thus far. Best fan fiction by far, hope you will publish one day!

Anyways, about BI... I'm not sure what the people above me are thinking, my assumption is that they don't think.

On the strategic map, BI is decent, the niffty new features are nice, but one'll probably get used to them in a matter of hours.

It's when the battle start that... oh the disappointment. Perhaps it is simply because I have been playing RTR (great mod, will satisfy you until Europa B. comes out), but just looking at the models and skins that CA has the nerve to publish is painful!

Not only are the new models and skins badly made, but most of them are clearly recycled (badly) from RTW. The very (I think there are all of 10-15) few new models are also badly made. Also the same model and a VERY similar skin is use for the same type of unit all across the world! Somehow, the WRE's horse archers look suspiciously similar to those employed by the Sassanids... This is not even mentioning the generic spearmen model which is spammed EVERYWHERE.

Oh and the gameplay... or rather the lack thereof, the AI is a little better, but that's like saying a mentally handicapped person is now reading at a first grade level... oh rapture...

The units move so fast and the heavy cavalry is so stupidly powerful that "tactics" seems to have fallen out of use along with the old Roman legions.

Compared to the level of gameplay that we had in the original Shogun (oh where have gone those days when CA made good games and Christ walked the Earth?), BI is a joke and a farce and a humiliating bastard child.

Don't get the game Frog, oh please, for Eleanor and baby Jesus's sake!

[Dimeola]

....that feeling.....of praying quite early in the game when one horde descends upon your eager little kingdom...praying as they ride thru and not AT you.....and then cursing as you discover why they were riding so fast. the other bigger horde chasing after them....to this point i`ve found the campaign to be tougher and more interesting than RTW...which I also quit.
battles....Of the several have played it seems the AI is better, tho not by alot. But I reserve judgement until I can play more.
I had deep reservations on this one and almost ignored it to go back to VI. But at this point i`m glad I got it.
D

[KSEG]

Anyways, about BI... I'm not sure what the people above me are thinking, my assumption is that they don't think.

Do you have to insult someone because they have a diffarent opinion then you?

[Garvanko]

OMG! Shadows! No longer does marching through a forest look like you are marching through a bunch of 2D sticks in the ground. The shadows of the units and the forests REALLY make it a visual enjoyment.

.

The shadows and visuals in BI has also been improved upon in RTW with the 1.3 patch.

[Kraxis]

Anyways, about BI... I'm not sure what the people above me are thinking, my assumption is that they don't think.

Nice!

And my retort is simply that you don't think... Wow right?