So ...

[Aetius the Last Roman]

Well I don't know about BI because I haven't played it yet but I have played RTR. I hate to be repetitive but after 6.1, Darthmod formations and morale mods, the game is actually challenging.

On the assumption that RTR and EB are going to upgrade to BI I would say buying the expansion is worth it.

[Steppe Merc]

On the assumption that RTR and EB are going to upgrade to BI I would say buying the expansion is worth it.

Do not assume EB will upgrade to BI. We have yet to decide.

[econ21]

Do not assume EB will upgrade to BI. We have yet to decide.

I wonder if there is going to be an independent downloadable 1.3 patch, as I believe CA said there would be? If so, EB will have to upgrade to that or get left to one side by many players (given a choice, who wants to play with a load/save bug?). But if there is such a patch, people would not need to buy BI to play an upgraded EB or RTR.

[Turin]

Sorry for having been so blunt... Everyone is entitled to their opinions certainly. If you all think that BI can even count as an expansion, sure, go ahead.

But I can bet you in less than a week you all will be complaining about the poor graphics, poor unit diversity, poor everything.

It's just that I've played so many RTS games that the little simple bells and whistles of BI have long since ceased to impress me.

[Kekvit Irae]

Opinions are one thing. Outright insults are another. If we continue on that path, I WILL lock down this thread. Keep this discussion civil, please.

[Shahed]

... BI is out. I could have brought it twice already today, but I didn't even wander into the shop. A first time occurrence; I had all other TW games on UK release day.

The frog is wondering, is it worth it? Is BI good for the frog who dropped RTW in disgust shortly after 1.2, and didn't play the game outside of the rare bit of MP for the months before 1.2? It pains me to sit here and ask in a very weary tone if BI is worth it, but there we go, that's what I'm doing.

The main reasons for that disgust with RTW ... well, they are numerous. To go into the kind of depth I feel would be fair in explaining how precisely I feel about RTW (and there was plenty I liked! And loved! But mostly overshadowed or crushed underfoot by the bits I didn't) I would end up writing a several page long analysis. So I won't I'll sum up very broadly, and try not to feel absolutely rotten. Which I will, no matter how hard I try. Gah!

RTW was ... too easy (on battle map and campaign), too boring (mostly because it was too easy), felt like it needed another few months before 1.0 and another couple of patches after 1.2, missing too many features and doodads from the older games in the series, had too many silly little errors in files like the traits one. Then there's the famous save/load thingie. I'm a busy frog; a turn or two at a time is all I can manage. It's either that or I don't play. This only made my games even more mind numbingly easy. We won't mention the nice PR bomb that issue received, though it did a good job of hardening dislike into disgust and getting the game finally uninstalled, hope having died a rather messy death.

After reading threads like Kraxis' my attention is now pricked a very little. Actually, threads like that are the only reason I'm asking; before I wasn't interested enough to care.

It’s not ‘simple’ things like challenge I’m wanting from BI. Although I do want that too. I want … that feeling again. The magic returned. And all that other guff that is hard to word. I want something in the lineage of STW or VI. I want … I don’t want to be left feeling mine is the only faction on the campaign map, or that I am wasting my time, or that I should have waited for a discounted version or not bothered at all, or that the game could have been great if only, and all those other things I felt with RTW.

I want to like BI. No, I want to love it. But I wanted to love RTW too, and there are so many books out there a frog wants to buy, and only so much money and time ...

And someone tell me why I have this feeling I should wait a couple of weeks, then ask, so there is more time for bugs and issues to be spotted and for the initial gloss to wear off …. I’m getting very cynical in my old age. I feel very rotten now.

I had STW when it was out, pre-ordered MTW and VI and got them within a day or two of release. I was one of the first to order RTW. But BI honestly I did'nt even know it was coming out but I guessed it would be about mid September. I have'nt even bothered to look it up for the same reasons you stated. All that eye candy but it's just so hollow. No challenge, no feel and most importantly, no atmosphere. I want to enjoy this game and I do for the various other reasons such as "cinematic battles" (no pun intended). I doubt if I'll buy BI just yet, maybe next month if I wander into a store and feel like picking it up. Meanwhile I'll keep reading about it right here.

[Steppe Merc]

I wonder if there is going to be an independent downloadable 1.3 patch, as I believe CA said there would be? If so, EB will have to upgrade to that or get left to one side by many players (given a choice, who wants to play with a load/save bug?). But if there is such a patch, people would not need to buy BI to play an upgraded EB or RTR.

Well, we'd like to wait until we discover all the new bugs inherit in 1.3
But I don't suppose 1.3 would allow hordes and all that? Just fix the load save bug (whatever that is... never experienced it (I think) myself).

[frogbeastegg]

:sighs: Oh ... very well. I suppose this does sound about as reasonable as could be expected, although I do wonder if the lack of "Devastating bug! Gah!" threads is due to the short time the game has been out. I don't like wondering that at all, but there we go. I don't expect terribly much, but that does make it hard to be disappointed at least.

But I do hope Sega has started a new era; as publishers go they are in my better books because they seem to support niche titles, give developers time to finish their games, and support those games when they are done. The standalone 1.3 patch for RTW is perhaps a signal of what to expect. I certainly hope so.

It's £14.99 on Amazon.uk, so I chucked a book in with it for free delivery. I still couldn't muster the enthusiasm to go shopping in my lunchbreak and pay more to have BI now. £14.99; that's two or three fiction books or one big fat history book at Amazon prices.

The Shogun called people whiners while busily denying the existence of the save/load issue. Anyone who thought there might be a problem was a whiner, regardless of whether they were whining or not, or even posting anything at all.

Mods aren’t an option for me, regardless of the mod and the contents, until the 1.3 patch is available for download. No matter what the mod changes it can’t fix the save/load thingy, so I’m still left playing against an AI which admires the view and does very little else. However, once that issue is fixed the frog can try a load of mods without trouble

Turin: Eleanor isn't fanfic, it's original fiction. It's entirely my own creation. Glad you like it Hehe, BI will pose precisely no threat to the story; nothing manages to be more appealing to me than writing it. Rather, the story threatens to steal my BI playing time, even if it’s the game I was hoping for with RTW 1.0!

[Orda Khan]

So far its been great. The AI is far better

.......Orda

[Doug-Thompson]

Snap out of it and play the game.

If it's terrible, take it to a used game store and trade it in. Then be glad for all those years of Shogun and Medieval Total War. It's not hard to imagine a world in which those games never existed.

Even if you don't like BI, I believe that it is enough of an improvement over R:TW to give you hope for the next game in the series.

=========

As for Turin's remarks, his delivery may have been unkind but there are a bits that merit a response.

Unfortunately, someone else will have to respond to the comments about the skins and the models. I respect the amount of art and work that goes into those skins. However, I don't appreciate them as much as I ought. Gameplay matters so much more in my personal value judgements, that appearance doesn't weigh much.

However, I do think it is fabulously unfair to skin (pardon the pun) a company for not producing a whole new line of better qualilty skins for an expansion kit. I know just enough about skinning to know that it is a very labor-intensive and expensive part of producing a game. BI is a new game in it's strategic situation and improvements to tactical gameplay, but it's not a complete rewrite.

=======

I cannot agree that cavalry is ridiculously overpowered, or that tactics don't matter. I don't believe that any unjaundiced comparison of BI and R:TW could avoid the conclusion that BI is better in those regards. In R:TW, you didn't so much guide your armies as aim them and fire. There is improvement in that area. Somebody point to any forum post similar to Kraxis "Impressive Hun" account in all of R:TW.

[zukenft]

Even though it is just mediocre, the expansion is still worth getting. You should really get this game. (note on GET and not BUY: I suggest finding a friend that buys BI and ask to have it after he's bored)

[Kekvit Irae]

As far as the save/load bug goes, I saved my WRE game, loaded it back up, and the AI *still* pounded me back into the dark ages (forgive the pun). Dont know if that was just me, or if the bug was fixed. Certainly saves me the trouble of trying to play an "Ironman" campaign.

[Turin]

The Save Load bug has been fixed. This I am almost 90% sure of.

Mumm... well looking back on things I guess I was outright rude. Really it was more of a joke than anything else, especially with Kraxis (love the interactive history thing that you do). I suppose a smilie to denote the insincere nature of my remark would have been appropriate, but then again I was never one for smilies.

Well what I'm really trying to get at is this: remember when you first started playing RTW back almost a year ago? Remember that "OMG there's this this and this to do and... OH! wow!" and so on and so on. It's not till a week or two in that the defect start to get to you. It's the same thing for BI. The "Oh wow I'm playing BI" feeling wears off REAL fast. For me it didn't even last into the first battle.

I mean, have you all seen the Sassanids? Their units are basically a set of barbarian units (the same set that comprises 90-100% of Western barbarian faction retinues) reskinned with a terriblly bright blue!

Even more blasphemous, the "Virgin" units for the Sarmatians... has CA really degraded itself to selling its game with SEX APPEAL???!!!

In summary, BI is a poorly made expansion that goes against the very spirit of the Total War series. Shame on CA and Sega.

Oh and Frog, sorry, I thought that the connection with MTW (in a very remote way) qualified it as a fanfic. I was mistaken on second thought, my apologies, keep up the excellent work.

[Azi Tohak]

All I can say is that I am pleased. I rather like the AI's take on formations. Definitely different (inverse cresent? what?), but I do like the battles now. I am playing H/H with the ERE (don't want to tax myself too much) and I think it is fun. I would like more provinces, but that can be fixed without any problems (just not by me... not very skilled with modding you see).

I was not going to buy it either, until I started to read some reviews on here. I think its worth it!

Azi

[Doug-Thompson]

Well, even I'll acknowledge that the bright baby blue for the Sassanids is a fashion blunder.

[Kraxis]

Well, even I'll acknowledge that the bright baby blue for the Sassanids is a fashion blunder.

Can't argue with that, but basically all other colours are taken. There will always be a faction that has a very ugly colour.

I'm not going to complain about the skins, if that was so, then why did I like either MTW or STW? Talk about blurry images.

And perhaps we are indeed a bit BI-happy now, but remember that most of us were in fact rather negative about RTW before. Aside from a short dabble with RTR 6.0 I hadn't played RTW since March out of pure boredom and lack of challenge.

Now tonight I won a massive battle against the Sassanids, but that was mainly due to me hiding behind a collection of big rocks and the Sass army was made up by Peasants for a great extent (though the Sughdans made a spectacular appearance). When I broke their initial attacks and felt it was time for a general infantry charge (my favourite tactic), it was due to the success but also because the AI had sent an escorted unit of Elephants behind the rocks. The escort tied up my cavalry (sacrificed themselves to let the eles past), then the eles deftly avoided combat before charging towards my infantry. I had my hands tied, it was do or die. One unit of infantry was sent to deal with the elephants while the other three attacked.

Is was a near disaster because the Sassanids let their Peasants break, then hit my infantry while they were chasing (enter the Sughdans). One unit of Comitatenses even got wiped out because the Sassanids surrounded it when it was alone. I only won becasue I had sent my general out to chase some spearmen off. He could then take the Sughdans in the rear (but they fought on).

Was I impressed? Yes! Was it a challenge? Yes! Did I ever feel outclassed or lucky to win? No. But I doubt that day will come soon. The AI used the correct tactics, but I was simply better and had the better army.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Playing medium-medium I've had some fun as the Saxons.

Diplomacy feels a little more solid than RTW, but that's just my limited experiances.

I've had just two good battles, and both we interesting, facing the diverse (and gimmicky) Celts. The first was a battle of about 1000 per side, I won taking about 50% casualties (they lost maybe 90%). They retreated to their town, where some more soldiers waited. So the siege assault was about 500 me vs. 450 them. Most of them were heavy cavalry, and I won using my spearmen's shield wall. Though I lost another 40%.

Now I have to face the Western Romans, and some powerful rebels.

Take the plunge, Froggy! The water's nice!

[Red Harvest]

Froggie pretty much stated my feelings on BI. I've been pleased to hear Kraxis and others are finding it refreshing. I'll hold off until the newness is gone and the game is less expensive. Since there are fewer folks testing this one thoroughly, I'm going to wait a bit longer before I draw a conclusion on it. I'll probably wait for the 1.3 RTW patch at least, and perhaps wait for the price to tumble.

[frogbeastegg]

Ah yes - seeing mention of the difficulties reminds me, are they now functioning correctly again? And is the hard battle setting still just a bunch of bonuses to the AI's troops combat power? Probably too early to tell, but worth asking ...

:crosses her fingers and really hopes that the harder battle settings are closer to MTW's with less stat boosting and more on the extra tactics front, but is not hopeful: I despise stat boosts in battle as a form of difficulty enhancer.

[Kraxis]

Ah yes - seeing mention of the difficulties reminds me, are they now functioning correctly again? And is the hard battle setting still just a bunch of bonuses to the AI's troops combat power? Probably too early to tell, but worth asking ...

:crosses her fingers and really hopes that the harder battle settings are closer to MTW's with less stat boosting and more on the extra tactics front, but is not hopeful: I despise stat boosts in battle as a form of difficulty enhancer.

Doubtful is indeed the way to go with that. The way the AI acts in my game a Medium I would simply be very hard pressed if it was better in two steps up. It acts mostly sensible now, I find it hard to believe it would be better further up, but that would be something...

[Garvanko]

Generals can now marry outside settlements. Was this ever possible in RTW? Don't think so.

[Puzz3D]

Ah yes - seeing mention of the difficulties reminds me, are they now functioning correctly again? And is the hard battle setting still just a bunch of bonuses to the AI's troops combat power? Probably too early to tell, but worth asking ...

:crosses her fingers and really hopes that the harder battle settings are closer to MTW's with less stat boosting and more on the extra tactics front, but is not hopeful: I despise stat boosts in battle as a form of difficulty enhancer.

In a v1.3 medium Jullii campaign, I had a dead even matchup againt a Gaul army. Both generals were 4 star and both armies had 850 men. Julii had all hastati with two equite cav. Gaul had warband and a few skirmishers with two or three barbarinan cav.

Julii was in the standard single line formation that is more or less impossed on you by the AI with one equite on each end. I was attacking and moved out of a forest onto a gentle downslope where the Gaul army was waiting. I had the hastati in guard formation, but I didn't have fire-at-will turned on. Gaul had a more balanced army than mine, and their skirmishers inflicted a fair amount of casualties on my units on the left. I used my equite on the right to attack two barbarian cav on that side, but the equite lost and the enemy cav counterattacked. I moved my general to the right to hold that side, and the Gauls then attacked along the whole line. My attention stayed on the right side fighting for about a minute or maybe slightly longer. When I looked back to the left, Gaul was routing the entire left side of my line. My right side fought on for a while longer, but eventually lost. I killed 400 Gauls and lost 800, and my general was killed. It wasn't very good play on my part, and the AI took advantage of it winning decisively at medium difficulty with even odds.

Back on the strategic map, this Gaul army of 500 men stayed put at the entrance of a mountain pass. I was able to assemble a 1500 man army under a 2 star general in a few turns, and returned and eliminated the Gaul army. I lost 200 men doing that.

One very good thing now is that the AI puts its good generals into large armies, and he doesn't charge forward right away. This helps the AI to be a lot more competative in the battles.

[Terry]

But, but... frogbeastegg, if you don't get the expansion, whimper whimper, who will write the Strategy guide?

Terry


Yours are the cream of the cream.... I print them all out for my "huge" 3 ring binders....

[Turin]

Oh no! If Frog buys the game and starts writing strategy guides, what will happen to poor Eleanor?

LOL anyway, the AI is slightly better in that it no longer does totally pointless manuvers. However, the AI still cannot attack in a cohesive way. It's infantry line breaks apart before contact and the cavalry is rather haphazard.

Oh and the harder difficulties simply mean combat bonuses for the AI, they aren't actually smarter.

[Ldvs]

Well what I'm really trying to get at is this: remember when you first started playing RTW back almost a year ago? Remember that "OMG there's this this and this to do and... OH! wow!" and so on and so on. It's not till a week or two in that the defect start to get to you. It's the same thing for BI. The "Oh wow I'm playing BI" feeling wears off REAL fast. For me it didn't even last into the first battle.

I don't have the game, so I may completely wrong in my assumptions.

With RTW, we discovered a totally different map, graphics, management system, etc... Thus, yes I do agree with you when you say there was that "newness effect" and it took us two weeks to realise the game was full of bugs and not challenging at all. Yet, this time, people have had time to get used to playing with the new system. Moreover, it's an expansion, not a brand-new game as CA hammered it.
I knew there would be threads like "BI is a marvel" and "I want my money back". I'm not relying on them at all. What positively drew my attention were Kraxis, Doug or CBR's posts. They've been playing the TW series for so long that I know they see beyond the glossy graphics and features and are sensible enough to understand that any AI has its limits. Not many people had high expectations for BI, but these "veterans" are obviously favourably impressed with the game.
Perhaps RTW bored you so much so that you lost all desire to play the game even before you played this first battle?

[Steppe Merc]

Well, even I'll acknowledge that the bright baby blue for the Sassanids is a fashion blunder.

All faction colors are a mistake.

[Garvanko]

The Franks look very cool.

[PseRamesses]

...I also like the different building styles and new arhitecture.

[Bob the Insane]

I think the accusation of cinematics is a fair one... This really does play like the Hollywood school of historical film making. Not that this is a particularly bad thing in my opinion.

It is exciting, fast and full of action. With twists and turns of the unexpected...

Personally I have had, STW, MTW (and VI) and RTW and finally BI. I have played RTW with RTR from v5.2 to 6.1 and I have pretty much enjoyed it all.

Any one who argues that any one of those games is hugely historically correct needs to study more that the Greeks and the Romans... The fact is the game has always been this way.

Having said that, and stictly in my opinion only of course, RTW:BI is the best of the bunch so far. The improvements of plain RTW are many but one of the most obvious... On the battlefield, if you are defending and the enemy is moving to attack, they will attack in formation. As the AI is moving towards you it actualy manouvers. and constant checks its formation to keep units in place.

It does not do anything fancy, simply staying in formation for the attack and send cavalry to your flanks, but it does this consistantly. And it makes a big difference. This is not to say that if you know your stuff you can't break them, beat them and get a big kill ratio. But it actually takes some effort. And it makes the AI difficult to beat with a unrealistically small force (unless to do something very clever)...

[fenir]

Froggie
I too, have had all the Total War series games.

I too stopped playing RTW, and went back to MTW. Of which i still have a game going.
I like RTW, but like you said, it does not have the magic of MTW and earlier games. It's playablility seems less, or is less, i don't know, it just doesn't have the magic.

But after reading the reports, including Doug-Thompson, i think i will have a look at it.
I hope i like it, i really do, i have always found the battles to easy in all the TW series, but i have really enjoyed MTW.
When MTW came out, I myself said to Mr T Smith. That I would enjoy this game for years, I have, and I do still to this day.
But RTW + BI have to really step up a gear, if they are going to replace that magic in MTW.
A balanced game, based in history, and playable. Make it hard i don't care, but make it believible, but make it enjoyable.
Eye candy is great, but no where near as good as function and balance, and believible.

Anyway, I am now resigned to trying BI. And if I need more provinces I always do.
Then I will mod it again. Or just punich bits and peices and include them in my own game modification. Just like my MTW.

Anyway enough rambling...

come on froggie, lets give it a go,

fenir