Feedback on BI

**Loinnreach** · 10-06-2005, 14:09

Just yesterday i fought a chap (whos first game i assume it was) who took 10cilibans (very heavy cav) put them all in one big wedge and rolled over my entire army.

Maybe is just me, but I assume that in BI you are able to win this with nice balanced army (you just move units a bit differently then in mtw/vi) which was not possible in RTW. Imho.

Maybe we will see players coming back to VI, but I still belive that BI is a step in right direction. For me problematic issue is lag and replay desync.

**Puzz3D** · 10-06-2005, 15:41

Originally Posted by Loinnreach

Maybe is just me, but I assume that in BI you are able to win this with nice balanced army (you just move units a bit differently then in mtw/vi) which was not possible in RTW.

It's not about just moving units differently. In MTW, overlapped units fought at half effectiveness, there was a 20% cost increase for each unit over 4 of the same type and the RPS in melee was stronger. Even with the improved performance of spears vs cav in RTW, the spears may still be too expensive relative to the cav they can stop. A spear unit shouldn't cost more than half as much as the cav it can beat. Right now with large units in RTW v1.3, a silver shield pikeman at 760 denari can beat a cataphract costing 940 denari frontally, but it's not 1/2 the cost.

The thing to find out is how many spears you need in a more or less balanced army to beat an all cav army. In STW, you could do it with 6 yari samurai infantry, but there cav couldn't disengage and the anti-cav bonus was 400%. In MTW, you need 8 spears (50% of your army) to beat all cav, you have to withstand multiple charges, and the anti-cav bonus is 300%. In RTW, the anti-cav bonus is weaker (only 60% in RTW v1.2 and I don't know if that has changed), and it's easier to disengage than it was in MTW. In RTW v1.3, the anti-cav performance during the charge is much better than it was in RTW v1.2. You probably need at least 10 spears to have a chance against an all cav army in RTW v1.3.

Another approach to this problem is to play at low enough money so that you can't afford all cav. However, for that to be viable the morale of non-upgraded units has to be high enough for them to be useful. Total War games have always had low morale without upgrades, and most people don't want to play their battles at such low morale.

In Samurai Wars for MTW/VI, a combination of these approaches is used to make balanced armies not only viable but desireable. The anti-cav bonus is 600%, the money is kept low enough that you can't afford all cav and the morale is high enough that you don't need upgrades. What this does is allow 4 spears to be a sufficient number to bring to any battle, and this in turn increases the maneuver tactics because you have fewer spears vs fewer cav, so you have to use them well and get them to where they can counter the enemy's cav threats.

**buujin** · 10-06-2005, 16:15

I liked the VI community mod you guys and Sam wars for that matter because it kept balance and a good standard of morale without the use of upgrades. The upgrade system in RTW/BI is even worse than it was in the predesessors because the price for an upgrade doesnt go up the more you buy.

Myself and a clanmate are in the process of developing a new mod for vi using similar foundations and also using elements from BKB's Supermod which has many new units and factions.

Thought i should make this aware to anyone thinking about coming back to VI :)

**Loinnreach** · 10-06-2005, 17:34

Yes Yuuki, as well all that as you have mentioned. With that manouvering I had in mind that in RTW you as well were able to group all units almost in one spot which is not possible in MTW/VI and should be made here as well, but... (won't go in details)

I've just played few team matches against few players who picked spam armies (cavalry for example) and won without too much difficulties and in this sense I belive good direction was made with BI.

My personal opinion is that BI is competitive and you need a some skills to win thought. It is not just 'click fest' like many referred to RTW.

TW series are beside gampleay very important from aspect of unit stats , of what we all are aware.

The upgrade system in RTW/BI is even worse than it was in the predesessors because the price for an upgrade doesnt go up the more you buy.

I can't agree that this is bad, becaus this system should be compared to RTW not MTW/VI and in this aspect, upgread system for BI imporves it's gameplay.

RTW/BI simply is different game same as MTW/VI is different game then STW/MI.
BI upgread system from BI aspcet of gameplay is good as VI upgread system is good from VI aspect of gameplay.

I've talked with few 'veteran' players, regarding TW upgreads. Some have agreed that it would be best if factions would be balanced wihout any need for upgreads.
This would be best solution and will allow you as well to play a game on every denari level.

For example in MTW/VI as well, you can turn one ordinary unit into 'super unit'.

We all have different opinions how things should be made. I just know that those of old generation players who has left are in role playing games, few on fake STW servers and rest in MTW/VI or RTW/BI.

If we then even add mods to this different series we soon get the whole picture. There are/were issues like 'what amount is best to play MTW/VI matches' for example.

I really don't mind what someone is playing, the fact is just that TW MP players are 'crumbled' all over.

ps. That there will be no missunderstanding, I appriciate all the time mod makers spent on all those mods.

**Puzz3D** · 10-06-2005, 20:22

If the replay desync has come back, that's unfortunate because it's difficult to track down the cause. At this point, I'm far more interested in whether or not RTW/BI multiplayer is worth investing the time and effort required to play it. Once you get away from Total War multiplayer, you realized how many other things you gave up doing in order to play Total War online.

To me it's important to be able to use a distributed formation. If you have to keep your units compacted into a small area to prevent them from being routed by a frontal rush, it's very limiting geometrically because you can't set up different angles of attack or even effective counterflanking moves. At least you should be able to utilize several groups of units that can be positioned with substantial separation between them. You don't want to be able to come from a great distance to assist a unit or group of units that are in trouble, but you want to be able to come from "some" distance. Identifying that distance, which varies for various unit matchups, is an interesting part of the game and allows you to set traps and ambushes etc. If that distance is compressed to nearly zero by the game mechanics, an interesting part of the gameplay is lost. The same is true on a larger scale for whole armies in team games if it's necessary to concentrate all the teams armies in a single area as fast as possible.

The upgrade system has actually kept moving in a good direction. In STW, you had 9 levels of honor and each level gave a 40% increase in combat power. In MTW, that was cut back to 4 levels. In RTW, it's cut back to 3 levels, and each level only gives a 20% increase in combat power. In practice, the upgrade system tends to compress the differences between the low end units and the high end units because you get the same combat power increase for less money on low end units. That was addressed in MTW by inflating the cost of the upgrade over what it was actually worth. I don't think that's the case in RTW.

Uneven upgrading can also alter the role a unit plays in RPS which I don't like, but some players do like. To the extend that CA balances the units, it's done with equal upgrades and a particular morale level. As I recall, Longjohn said it was balanced at zero upgrades. Uneven upgrading and different levels of morale alter the balance of the units. So, the optimum balance will be found at one particular morale level which you can adjust in steps of +2 by using uniform upgrades. This optimal morale level in MTW was higher for team games than it was for 1v1 battles due to the way the outnumbered morale penalty worked. We don't know if there is an outnumbered morale penalty in RTW. I could find out a lot about morale penalies by doing tests, but it's a lot of work and I'm not highly motivated to do it for RTW. Besides, I'd have to buy a 2nd computer to do the tests.

**L'Impresario** · 10-06-2005, 20:41

RTW/BI simply is different game same as MTW/VI is different game then STW/MI.
BI upgread system from BI aspcet of gameplay is good as VI upgread system is good from VI aspect of gameplay.

Erm, no on both accounts. MTW/VI is using the same engine with STW/MI. We know to great detail how the battles work and we can also recognise that upgrades can't be a balancing factor. In all cases, there will be some type of unit(s) that will get a serious advantage that in the end shall make it prevail in players' army lists. You can take as examples chronologicaly the Ashigaru, the Monks, the spear and pike units, the sword units - in RTW you certainly couldn't turn a relatively weak unit into a game winning one (maybe Desert Cav or various assorted archers, but still..), though you could take the elite cavalry ones and take advantage of the blob attack feature.
Especially in previous games, the fact that people try to use a florin level that appears "right", starting unit morale is low and unit prices are very close to each other, transforms the game into a mathematical/logistical exercise. But if there are some basic mechanics that are working correctly in all cash levels, then you can get a relatively good game based on r/p/s. RTW fails more in the second part than in the first.
BTW, we 're making the above-mentioned mod as a way to have a fun, diverse gaming experience with a small but good circle friends, that will help us refresh a bit the VI experience and present some new challenges, based on some ideas previously presented by great mods such as the comm,sam wars and reconq, and building on them . We are currently thinking of releasing it(we have tho to polish lots of aspects, and only after taking permission from some persons whose work we used, like BKB). But this might be a thing to discuss after a while, now this is a BI thread heh.

**AquaLurker** · 10-06-2005, 21:58

One question, is BI a playable multi player expansion or is it just another bug ridden desync fest product with humongus lag bugs?

I am asking this because I am thinking of getting one.

**Puzz3D** · 10-06-2005, 22:49

I haven't seen any posts that say the battles are desyncing. I have seen a couple of posts where people said their BI replay did not play the same as the original battle. I haven't seen anything about RTW playback being incorrect. An incorrect playback can be caused by a particular unit type. Since there are no new units types in RTW, I would expect those replays to be ok.

I saw some posts where players said they had severe lag in night battles, but other players posted that they had no lag in night battles. It would seem that severe lag is computer specific.