MTW: Subterfuge Guide

[Ludens]

As to the Hero units, are there any special requirements, or do you just need to be of the particular faction and train the particular unit during a certain time period? Will just having a basic Tavern be all that is necessary? Will these agents only train in certain provinces?

There are no special requirements. IIRC agents are unusual in appearing immediatly after their "birthdate" as opposed to generals, who wait until they are 16. I suppose this is because agents (apart from princesses) are ageless.

True, that is a use for the Vice Detection. How much does loyalty get affected? This would likewise be useful if you're preparing to bribe a particular unit. It'll make bribing more successful, and most likely at a reduced cost.

The "informants"-line of vices has six levels, and each level reduces loyalty with one, starting at the second level (informants network) so at the sixth level (assasinator) the character has a -5 modifier for loyalty. The fifth and sixth levels (secret assasination and assasinator) also reduce hapiness with a -2 and -4 modifier respectively (this probably means -20 and -40 province loyalty).

[sbroadbent]

There are no special requirements. IIRC agents are unusual in appearing immediatly after their "birthdate" as opposed to generals, who wait until they are 16. I suppose this is because agents (apart from princesses) are ageless.

I presume that means that all you need to do is train a bunch of the particular agents and eventually one will pop up as the special character. That reminds me, in my game as the Sicilians in which I have 4 star spies (a sweet -120% province happiness penalty ;) I noticed that one of my catholic bishops is V5. I wasn't sure if this was as a result of a failed assassination attempt, and the bishop got some crazy Valor boost, or if this could be a special character. The bishops name is Don Cosmas of Mahdia. I did a google search, and Mahdia is a place in Tunisia, while "Cosmas" comes up in a number of different places. In this case, a particular Cosmas Atticus was the Patriarch of Constantinople between the years 1146 and 1147. Seems to be the right era.

The "informants"-line of vices has six levels, and each level reduces loyalty with one, starting at the second level (informants network) so at the sixth level (assasinator) the character has a -5 modifier for loyalty. The fifth and sixth levels (secret assasination and assasinator) also reduce hapiness with a -2 and -4 modifier respectively (this probably means -20 and -40 province loyalty).

This information has been added.

Thanks for the help. Any idea on when the thread might get moved to the MTW Guides forum?

[Ludens]

I presume that means that all you need to do is train a bunch of the particular agents and eventually one will pop up as the special character.

No, they appear after a set date once train the appropriate agent. You can find them in a M:TW heroes guide (Ky Kiske's guide for M:TW can be found here, IIRC VI does not feature hero agents), but I am not sure which parameter (Command? Loyalty? Piety?) stands for their skill rating.

Also, whereas generals appear 16 years after their birth, I recall seeing Guy of Grisbourne once before 1200, so perhaps they are available immediatly upon birth.

Any idea on when the thread might get moved to the MTW Guides forum?

I don't know; I am not a moderator of this forum.

[Martok]

I noticed that one of my catholic bishops is V5. I wasn't sure if this was as a result of a failed assassination attempt, and the bishop got some crazy Valor boost, or if this could be a special character. The bishops name is Don Cosmas of Mahdia.

I haven't looked at the heroes list in a while, but the odds are extremely good that Don Cosmas Mahdia is indeed a special character. (Valour-5 bishops usually don't just appear at random. ) I know the game does have "Hero" religous agents, so there's no reason why Cosmas isn't one as well. For other examples, the Spanish get some uber-Inquisitor (whose name I forget), and the English get Thomas Beckett.

EDIT: I PM'ed kekvitirae. She responded and said she'll run it by FrogBeastEgg, and that if nothing else she'll add a link to this thread in the Guides' Table of Contents.

[frogbeastegg]

Very good work

sbroadbent, I think your work would benefit from being compiled into a single post rather than scattered across several as it is now. Then it will be easier for people to read and consider, without all the 'interruptions'. I suggest editing your final guide into the first post of the topic, or starting a new topic with it; then it will be the first thing people see on opening the thread. I know you have the PDF version, but a second, forum based version is never a bad thing and is helpful to those with slow connections or behind a firewall and unable to view PDFs. You can then add a link to the PDF near the start, for those who prefer to view it in that format.

Since the thread is attracting comments and additions here, I think it may be best for it to stay for a short while. When a thread moves to guides comments tend to drop off. From my own experience comments are important to a guide's growth and refinement; I won't want to hamper that When it goes quieter we'll look at a move.

[sbroadbent]

Well, I found my answer, Cosmas is a special character that appears in the XL mod. Going through the default_heroes text file, Guy of Gisbourne is the only special assassin with the rest being emissaries, bishops and inquisitors. I'm not sure if I'm reading it right, but the Egyptians get an inquisitor by the name of Ibn Taymiya al-Harrani. I presume Inquisitors are only available to Catholic factions?

As to their skill level, I'm presuming that special agents start at V5. The Command, Dread, Piety and Acumen ratings should only to apply to Generals. I suppose it's so if you say wanted to make Guy of Gisbourne a General instead of an assassin you'd just need to change his type and that he'd have ratings of 3/2/2/2.

As to editing the first message, I'll get around to it when I complete the pdf version.

Thanks Frogbeastegg, when I finish the guide, I'll revise the first message of this thread to include the complete guide.

With that said, version 0.2 has been uploaded here: Medieval: Total Subterfuge v0.2.

My time has been divided between this and Rome Total War, so hopefully I can balance my time ;)

[Vidar]

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers. I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player. In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught. Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good

[sbroadbent]

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers.

Thanks, I'm glad the guide has been useful. It should be even more useful once the religious characters have been added.

I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player.

I'm not quite familiar with how and why the AI behaves. This thread would be a useful forum for anyone who has any insight on the AI. It seems purely random, but I guess the primary targets would be low command/valor generals and agents because they'd be easy targets to boost the valor of the AI assassins. I'd suspect they'd also try to take out province governors and other high acumen characters to reduce your overall income by removing the generals that can boost income the best.

In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught.

Assassins are like pests. When you think you've killed the last one, there is usually one or more still out there out of range. The fortunate thing about assassins is that even if the other factions know that an ally is sending assassins at them, it won't kill an alliance.

Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good

Provinces with low zeal are the best places to protect your generals from roaming inquisitors. In such a case, sometimes it's best to plant inquisitors in some of their provinces to raise the zeal, but after a few turns move them around so that they don't burn the populace.

A useful double-team tactic I've thought about is using inquisitors and spies. You plant a few inquisitors in a province you want to go rebel, and just when you believe the inquisitors will start burning the populace, drop in a high valor spy V3-4. When the inquisitor goes to work, you can sometimes expect a 20-30% drop in province happiness (this unfortunately is for only one turn. Combine that with a 100-120% drop due to a spy, the AI might not have enough troops to keep loyalty up. If you time it right, you might be able to draw forces from their front lines in which you can launch your own attack if you're able to. The only downside is that this only works easily in provinces with high catholic religion.

[Geezer57]

Just looked over v0.2 of the guide - good stuff!

In the Siege/Trojan Horse section on spies, you might add that the player's best chance for success opening the gates is right after you get the "it is about to fall" message. Turns before this message seem to have lower chances of gate opening success.

This "about to fall" message can also be important if you're attempting to bribe a garrison under siege - it tells you that you have no more time left, should you continue the siege, for any bribe attempts to succeed. The fortification will fall before Emissaries act. If the circumstances are right, there can be occasions when you'll want to lift the siege temporarily, to let your Emissaries get to work bribing.

[Jxrc]

There is some kind of a bug for inquisitors.

Each time you fail to burn a general he gets a V&V increasing his piety (starting with "Devout" up "Born Again"). You might tink that a general with get a bit immune after a few unsuccessful attempts but if you try to burn a "born again" general once more he get the "atheist" V&V (Piety -8) so it's a piece of cake to burn him (especially since you inquisitors have increased zeal during their earlier attempt).

Regular inquisitors are only good for dealing with normal general (including princes who become normal general). They have a very small chance to burn princes (about 5% all in all) and almost none to burn a king. Trying is still a good idea since it will make their target become an atheist sooner or later and that will help the grand inquisitors later.

Indeed, order to reliably burn kings and princes, grand inquisitors are amazing. They can wipe out an entire bloodline in few years once they get a little valour.

There is also a second anomaly with inquisitor since the difficulty of the mission depends on the target's piety while the valor they get in case of success depends on the command rating ... Quite easy to spot a low piety five star general in a high zeal province to easily increase valour up to 3 (English; Italian and Spanish general are usually the easiest targets) ...

Personnaly I think that using inquisitors to deprive the AI of its best generals cause the whole catholic world to go rebel is a bit too easy (especilly since the AI does not seem able to assassinate more than one or two low valor inquisitors per game)... Fun when you discover it but it takes too much of the challenge out of the game

[Tristrem]

thank you for the help, hopefullly this will add some flavor to my new campain as the danes