MTW: Subterfuge Guide

[Vidar]

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers. I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player. In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught. Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good

[sbroadbent]

Hi, Ive checked out your guide and Ive found it useful. Ive started sending in assassins to "train" in trouble spots with good results, the guide also highlighted the multiple uses of spies, which I didnt know about, ive been using spies to get rid of treasonous generals, again with good results, so cheers.

Thanks, I'm glad the guide has been useful. It should be even more useful once the religious characters have been added.

I think it would be cool to have a section explaining how the Ai factions use agents and what factors make them send agents after the player.

I'm not quite familiar with how and why the AI behaves. This thread would be a useful forum for anyone who has any insight on the AI. It seems purely random, but I guess the primary targets would be low command/valor generals and agents because they'd be easy targets to boost the valor of the AI assassins. I'd suspect they'd also try to take out province governors and other high acumen characters to reduce your overall income by removing the generals that can boost income the best.

In The campaign Ive been playing as the English, I was constantly having generals assassinated, even though I was allied to everyone and generally being nice, I seem to have stoped this with border forts and lots of assassins in training, although the pope seems to have some kind of grudge against me, Im surprised there is anyone left on his staff, given the number of papal assassins Ive caught.

Assassins are like pests. When you think you've killed the last one, there is usually one or more still out there out of range. The fortunate thing about assassins is that even if the other factions know that an ally is sending assassins at them, it won't kill an alliance.

Ive used Grand inquisitors to take down many a noble line, but have begun to notice that the faction leaders often move to a region with low zeal, if the GIs initial attempts fail, making it harder to try them. I dont know if this is just coincidence or by design. Good luck with the guide its looking good

Provinces with low zeal are the best places to protect your generals from roaming inquisitors. In such a case, sometimes it's best to plant inquisitors in some of their provinces to raise the zeal, but after a few turns move them around so that they don't burn the populace.

A useful double-team tactic I've thought about is using inquisitors and spies. You plant a few inquisitors in a province you want to go rebel, and just when you believe the inquisitors will start burning the populace, drop in a high valor spy V3-4. When the inquisitor goes to work, you can sometimes expect a 20-30% drop in province happiness (this unfortunately is for only one turn. Combine that with a 100-120% drop due to a spy, the AI might not have enough troops to keep loyalty up. If you time it right, you might be able to draw forces from their front lines in which you can launch your own attack if you're able to. The only downside is that this only works easily in provinces with high catholic religion.

[Geezer57]

Just looked over v0.2 of the guide - good stuff!

In the Siege/Trojan Horse section on spies, you might add that the player's best chance for success opening the gates is right after you get the "it is about to fall" message. Turns before this message seem to have lower chances of gate opening success.

This "about to fall" message can also be important if you're attempting to bribe a garrison under siege - it tells you that you have no more time left, should you continue the siege, for any bribe attempts to succeed. The fortification will fall before Emissaries act. If the circumstances are right, there can be occasions when you'll want to lift the siege temporarily, to let your Emissaries get to work bribing.

[Tristrem]

hi i've been reading the guide and i want to try removing the border forts and was wondering what you changed to edit them out

[sbroadbent]

hi i've been reading the guide and i want to try removing the border forts and was wondering what you changed to edit them out

There are two options. The first is if you wanted to remove both Watch Towers and Border forts, the second is if you wanted to retain just the Watch Towers. The first is easiest, but only as long as you play MTW (with or without VI) and without any additional mods.

Presuming you want to just get rid of both, browse to your MTW install folder. Make a copy of the Crusader_Build_Prod13.txt file. If you mess anything up it's a good idea to have something to set it back to default. If you play any mods though, the mods may have different files you will need to change.

Once you're in the Crusader_Build_Prod13 file, make sure word wrap is off, and scroll down to a line that should start with:

1 WATCH_TOWERS "Watch Towers, Border Fort"

I didn't include the entire line because I didn't want to manually type out the entire line, because I'm on one computer and the game is on another computer, and that one can't currently go on the internet. Anyway, you'll want to delete the entire line. In my Notepad, the line is long enough that it wraps to a second line, so you'll want to ensure that when finished, the Ribat entry was just above your edit, and that the entry for the Port is now below it. Once done, just save the file and load the game.

You will probably not be able to play any of your existing save games, as one or more factions will probably have built a watchtower and border fort. Since these are no longer in the game, at best the saves won't load, at worst you'll CTD (crash to desktop). It's best to make these changes when you plan to start a completly new game. Even if you plan to start a new game, you'll only be able to start in the Early era. This is because the other factions will have watch towers and/or border forts in some of their starting provinces.

Presuming you wanted to play in the High or Late eras you will need to do some editing to another file. From your install folder, go to the campmap folder, and then startpos folder. In here you will have the files that control each of the eras you can play. If you want to play in the High era, open up High.txt. Just press Ctrl+F and do a Find/Search for "MakeBuilding". This will take you to the location where the Buildings are placed in each province. You'll need to manually go through the file looking for any entry that says Watch_towers or Watch_towers2. The first is for the Watch Tower, while the Second is for the Border Fort. Delete the entire line to remove the building from appearing in the province when you start a game in that era.

Presuming you only wanted to get rid of Border Forts but keep Watch Towers, you would also need to do this step for any eras you planned to play. Because I usually play with the XL mod, this is something I had to do even though I was getting rid of both.

Getting rid of just Border Forts but retaining watch towers is slightly more complicated. You'll need an editor called the GnomeEditor, and it can be located in the Files section above. Here is a direct link: Gnome Editor

When you load up the Crusader Build Prod13 file it'll organize everything in neat rows and columns. To edit out Border Forts but retain Watch Towers locate line 33 which should be for Watch Towers and change each to the following:
Column 1 (Number of Upgrades): 0
Column 3 (Localised name): Watch Towers
Column 5 (Cost including upgrades): 100
Column 6 (Time to Build including upgrades): 1
Column 7 (Building Conditions): {}
Column 8 (Strategy map infopic filename): Watch Towers
Column 18 (Tech Level): 1
Column 24 (Population Happiness adjuster): 20

For column 24, this is how much of a boost to the province loyalty you will receive so it can be challenging to play without both Watch towers and border forts since you won't get a quick +50% boost to loyalty.

This may seem overwhelming at first, but it is fairly simple to understand once you've messed around with things.

[Ludens]

A very neat job, sbroadbent . As usual, a few corrections:

There is a very visible spelling error in the "special emissary"-section: I suppose PDF couldn't handle the accent in Cretien's name.

Princesses are time sensitive, but they won't dissappear when they have been assigned a target. Thus, you can make them live forever by ordering them to marry a general on an island without ports.

Princesses won't marry generals of opposing factions, only members of their royal family that are directly in the line of succesion. The "gaining valour"- section suggests otherwise.

Marrying them to your own generals won't place them in the line of succession, so they won't get kids (well, they probably do, but you won't see it). However, through their wife they get a claim to the throne and are more likely to become the leader of a rebellion. The loyalty bonus from the marriage will counteract this, though. Marrying your princesses to your own princes indeed results in secret-incest vices, but it will allow you to get heirs faster (off course, getting heirs is an unpredictable occurence in M:TW). AFAIK there is no effect on the V&V's of the offspring, but I may be wrong about that.

To propose to princesses of other factions, simply drop an emissary on them. I find it generally works if that faction just proposed an alliance, or is planning to do so (an emissary of theirs is heading towards your king).

BTW, your signature still points to version 0.1.

[sbroadbent]

A very neat job, sbroadbent . As usual, a few corrections:

There is a very visible spelling error in the "special emissary"-section: I suppose PDF couldn't handle the accent in Cretien's name.

Hmm, I noticed that as well. I think it was more like the game text file with all the special agents couldn't handle the accent. As I recall I copied from it, and in my rush to add that section among other things didn't change it.

I'm currently in the process of reinstalling windows for about the fifth time in 3 days, so my system is down until I can get all the files transfered off the drive and ready for a complete format.

Princesses are time sensitive, but they won't dissappear when they have been assigned a target. Thus, you can make them live forever by ordering them to marry a general on an island without ports.

I see. An interesting idea. I thought I had made mention that so long as she is kept on a mission, she'll stick around in the game.

Princesses won't marry generals of opposing factions, only members of their royal family that are directly in the line of succesion. The "gaining valour"- section suggests otherwise.

I think this is more an issue of wording that was used. I presume that if you target the faction leader of another faction with your princess, she will try to marry into that faction. I used unmarried generals in this case I believe to refer to unmarried members of the royal family. I suppose it would be more accurate to say, "If the faction that you are attempting to marry your princess to has no unmarried heirs..."

Marrying them to your own generals won't place them in the line of succession, so they won't get kids (well, they probably do, but you won't see it). However, through their wife they get a claim to the throne and are more likely to become the leader of a rebellion. The loyalty bonus from the marriage will counteract this, though. Marrying your princesses to your own princes indeed results in secret-incest vices, but it will allow you to get heirs faster (off course, getting heirs is an unpredictable occurence in M:TW). AFAIK there is no effect on the V&V's of the offspring, but I may be wrong about that.

I revised these sections. I did have one game which I found something interesting. My faction leader died, and the heir took the throne. I presumed that I wouldn't have any heirs, but when I checked, my faction gained two heirs. Apparently while he was still an heir, the heir had gotten married, and had kids and by the time he ascended to the throne, two of his kids had already matured. The game obviously keeps this from you, so you have no idea how many levels your family tree spans. I do like RTW in that you can view your entire family tree and see how everything gets connected.

This could explain the situation of hidden heirs, where you eliminate a faction leader, and then his successor immediately afterwards. You presume as such that the faction should be eliminated, when suddenly a hidden heir pops up. In this case, he wasn't necesarily hidden, but the game will only reveal the current faction leader and immediate heirs.

BTW, your signature still points to version 0.1.

I made the change, so the new one should appear with this message.

Regarding your comments Geezer, I'll make a note about those when I get a chance to. I'm hoping that I'll be back up and running in a day or so, and depending on my time I'll try to get the religious agents completed.

Since I've tended to play Catholic factions for the most part, do the muslim and orthodox religious agents have any different special abilities? The main abilities appear to be converting the population, proposing alliances and ceasefires, and simply acting as overt spies. Inquisitors have the abilities of trying a catholic general for heresy and raising zeal/burning the population in catholic lands.

[Martok]

Since I've tended to play Catholic factions for the most part, do the muslim and orthodox religious agents have any different special abilities? The main abilities appear to be converting the population, proposing alliances and ceasefires, and simply acting as overt spies. Inquisitors have the abilities of trying a catholic general for heresy and raising zeal/burning the population in catholic lands.

Imams help convert the populace to Islam, as well as raising zeal in Muslim provinces. They're essentially the Muslim equivalent of a Cardinal combined with an Inquisitor (except that they can't try anyone for heresy, of course).

[Jxrc]

There is some kind of a bug for inquisitors.

Each time you fail to burn a general he gets a V&V increasing his piety (starting with "Devout" up "Born Again"). You might tink that a general with get a bit immune after a few unsuccessful attempts but if you try to burn a "born again" general once more he get the "atheist" V&V (Piety -8) so it's a piece of cake to burn him (especially since you inquisitors have increased zeal during their earlier attempt).

Regular inquisitors are only good for dealing with normal general (including princes who become normal general). They have a very small chance to burn princes (about 5% all in all) and almost none to burn a king. Trying is still a good idea since it will make their target become an atheist sooner or later and that will help the grand inquisitors later.

Indeed, order to reliably burn kings and princes, grand inquisitors are amazing. They can wipe out an entire bloodline in few years once they get a little valour.

There is also a second anomaly with inquisitor since the difficulty of the mission depends on the target's piety while the valor they get in case of success depends on the command rating ... Quite easy to spot a low piety five star general in a high zeal province to easily increase valour up to 3 (English; Italian and Spanish general are usually the easiest targets) ...

Personnaly I think that using inquisitors to deprive the AI of its best generals cause the whole catholic world to go rebel is a bit too easy (especilly since the AI does not seem able to assassinate more than one or two low valor inquisitors per game)... Fun when you discover it but it takes too much of the challenge out of the game

[Tristrem]

thank you for the help, hopefullly this will add some flavor to my new campain as the danes

[Ludens]

I did have one game which I found something interesting. My faction leader died, and the heir took the throne. I presumed that I wouldn't have any heirs, but when I checked, my faction gained two heirs. Apparently while he was still an heir, the heir had gotten married, and had kids and by the time he ascended to the throne, two of his kids had already matured. The game obviously keeps this from you, so you have no idea how many levels your family tree spans. I do like RTW in that you can view your entire family tree and see how everything gets connected.

True, but still I think that only the royal family has kids. I have never seen nor heard anything to indicate that other generals also have families, and even if they do, it's not particularly relevant anyway.

I think this is more an issue of wording that was used. I presume that if you target the faction leader of another faction with your princess, she will try to marry into that faction. I used unmarried generals in this case I believe to refer to unmarried members of the royal family. I suppose it would be more accurate to say, "If the faction that you are attempting to marry your princess to has no unmarried heirs..."

Yes, that was what I meant.

There is some kind of a bug for inquisitors.

Each time you fail to burn a general he gets a V&V increasing his piety (starting with "Devout" up "Born Again"). You might tink that a general with get a bit immune after a few unsuccessful attempts but if you try to burn a "born again" general once more he get the "atheist" V&V (Piety -8) so it's a piece of cake to burn him (especially since you inquisitors have increased zeal during their earlier attempt).

It's more of a random chance. Surviving an inquisition will result in the "born again" line of virtues that offers protection from inquisitors. However, there is also a big chance that the target will develop a "secret heretic" or "secrect atheist" vice. The vices will usually be brought to light (i.e. they become "heretic" or "atheist") if the target survives another inquisition (yep, the victim reveals after the trail that isn't very devout at all ), making him easy pickings for a third or fourth inquisition.

I agree with you that Grand Inquisitors are overpowered, especially if you recruit them in Castille.

[EightDeer]

I noticed in the post with the chance-to-assassinate scale, you said you had never seen the 95% chance-to-assassinate. I have seen it, just now in fact.
I dropped a V6 assassin on a V0 Priest - 97%. Dropping the same assassin on a V0 Orthodox Bishop gives the elusive 95%.

[Caerfanan]

Hi all, being encouraged to have a look here, I spent some time reading it. Whoa...

A lot, a lot, a lot! Nice assassination chances pattern!

I have a question, though: speaking of the spies and assassins going up in valor killing the enemies' spies and assassins: does this stuff happens automatically or do you actually SEE the enemies' hiddens agents?

Because I tried to put spies and assassins everywhere, to see if I unveil someone, and this never happened, while I was at the same time capturing enemy agents during the end of turn resolution... Haven't checked the valor of my agents, though...

So. Do you happen to see enemy spies and/or assassins on the map?

[Martok]

Hey Caerfanan! Glad you found the info here to be of use.

So. Do you happen to see enemy spies and/or assassins on the map?

Nope. You cannot see other factions' assassins & spies, and they cannot see yours. They're effectively invisible unless/until they're caught.

[Caerfanan]

Hey Caerfanan! Glad you found the info here to be of use.


Nope. You cannot see other factions' assassins & spies, and they cannot see yours. They're effectively invisible unless/until they're caught.

Yokidoki... So if I am correct: sometimes, if you catch an assassin/spy in a province where you have assassin/spy, one of your agent might gain valor?

[Caerfanan]

I noticed in the post with the chance-to-assassinate scale, you said you had never seen the 95% chance-to-assassinate. I have seen it, just now in fact.
I dropped a V6 assassin on a V0 Priest - 97%. Dropping the same assassin on a V0 Orthodox Bishop gives the elusive 95%.

That's because Orthodox Bishops live in countries where the people is rude, and harsh.

...


Uuuh, spent to much time with those camels!!!

[caravel]

Yokidoki... So if I am correct: sometimes, if you catch an assassin/spy in a province where you have assassin/spy, one of your agent might gain valor?

One of your spies or assassins will gain valour. If you have aborder fort in that province, that will catch the rival factions' spies and assassins instead, and thus your agents will gain no valour.

IMHO the best way to valour up your agents is to not build border forts, but instead train up your assassins and spies through counterspying. You will notice, as the campaign progresses that certain provinces will catch more rival spies than any other, due to them being around a "hub of activity". You can cycle your agents around moving the low valour ones into these hubs to increase their valour, then move them on again once they're valoured up. Any of your agents that reach valour 5+ are then suitable for some select foreign missions. You can also try the approach of setting up a honey trap for rival agents. Keeping some emmissaries (the AI loves to go after them) in a province to act as bait will draw more rival agents in.

[Caerfanan]

One of your spies or assassins will gain valour. If you have aborder fort in that province, that will catch the rival factions' spies and assassins instead, and thus your agents will gain no valour.

IMHO the best way to valour up your agents is to not build border forts, but instead train up your assassins and spies through counterspying. You will notice, as the campaign progresses that certain provinces will catch more rival spies than any other, due to them being around a "hub of activity". You can cycle your agents around moving the low valour ones into these hubs to increase their valour, then move them on again once they're valoured up. Any of your agents that reach valour 5+ are then suitable for some select foreign missions. You can also try the approach of setting up a honey trap for rival agents. Keeping some emmissaries (the AI loves to go after them) in a province to act as bait will draw more rival agents in.

That is interesting material... I always build border forts. That's why I haven't seen a spy or assassin valour up.

Thanks a lot Cambyses II!

[sbroadbent]

Wow, I see this thread recently got dug up ;)

Maybe it's about time to move it over to the MTW Guides forum.

That is interesting material... I always build border forts. That's why I haven't seen a spy or assassin valour up.

Thanks a lot Cambyses II!

Even better, though some might say it makes the game easier, is to get rid of the border forts completly. It makes it easier because your spies and assassins are much less likely to die when they enter enemy territory. Unfortunately in the game it's impossible to tell an assassin to not follow his target if the target leaves your provinces.

Once you start using spies and assassins, I find that the AI loves it so much, that they start spamming assassins of their own.

I haven't had a chance to complete the guide as I started spending time with RTW, and then last month picked up both M2TW and the Total War Eras collection for $69.99

I originally got the Eras pack months ago, but my copy (and several other copies at the EB games I was at had an extra RTW gold disc and missing the Alexander expansion. It was one of the few times you could return opened software :)


I'm currently in the end stretch (60 turns remaining) of my first English campaign. So I'm considering starting up a M2TW: Subterfuge Guide.

[EatYerGreens]

Wow, I see this thread recently got dug up ;)

I'm looking at it now thanks to a link to it in "A padawan seeks advice" (more interesting material in there btw).

I was totally taken aback to see how much I had contributed to this thread and forgotten about (mind like a sieve!)

Unfortunately in the game it's impossible to tell an assassin to not follow his target if the target leaves your provinces.

Now it is a really annoying part of the game when the following happens (this will be horribly familiar to regular players).

1) Another faction's emissary arrives on your territory (one with a port).
2) He stays put for a few years.
3) You move an assassin into the same province but don't order an attack yet, just to see what he does in response.
4) He stays put for even more years.
5) You pick up your assassin and set him to attack the Emissary
6) That very year, the emissary SUDDENLY decides it's a good time to head to completely the opposite side of the map. "Coincidence", my codlings!
7a) Annoyance #1 - your assassin is still on home turf, in "action pose" but is now permanently one move behind this emissary, wherever he goes.
7b) Annoyance #2 And now the itchy-feet Emissary is conducting a non-stop world tour!
7c) Annoyance #3 Your agent inevitably gets captured before he ever catches the target (exactly the same way you bait enemy assassins to come to your trainees).

Actually, you CAN cancel the mission before your assassin gets onto a ship and arrives in a BF'd foreign port on his first trip. Just pick him up, drop him on his current province and click the tick, in the "cancel mission?" dialogue.


When both the emissary and assassin begin by being located in a landlocked province of yours, the nearest equivalent is the "two-province two-step", whereby the Emissary 'dances' between the same two provinces, never getting caught by your perpetually lagging agent.

A solution that I've found (to both versions of the problem) is to attack using an assassin coming in from a neighbouring province (landlocked target) or 'parachuted in' by sea (target is in a port province of yours).


DO NOT rely on "assassin autopilot". They take crazy routes sometimes and will wander onto enemy soil (BFs!!) if allowed to work out their own route. They go on autopilot if you assign a mission from where begin the turn and they have to travel across provinces to reach the target.

Solution:-
First, get the assassin into the right preliminary geographical position without initiating the mission itself yet.
Second, pick up the assassin from port_1 (or province_next_door), then drop him on port_2 (or the province containing the target), to dictate the final geographical movement.
Third, from his fresh drop position, pick him up again and now drop him on the target. He will go into action pose at that location but the AI 'cheat' now fails to work.

I've downloaded your pdf but not browsed through it just yet. Apologies if I'm repeating any content.


A couple more 95%s for you
Assassin v_6 vs Emissary v_2
Assassin v_6 vs Bishop/Alim v_1
Assassin v_6 vs (own)Spy v_0
Assassin v_6 vs Inquisitor v_0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 97..(?)..(?)..90..(?)..83..76..(?)

I also have a solitary 10% result (target may have had +5 health or some other VnV modifier)
Assasin v_1 vs Faction leader 2* command.



The "hero" agents are easy to distinguish from 'valoured up' ones. A 'unique' looking name like {so-and-so} of {placename} is a big giveaway that they're a historical character (legendary (aka mythical), in the case of Gisbourne). All the other agent names are random combinations of forename/surname and will often be familiar re-occurrences of names you've seen on your generals.


Lastly, I'd like to re-emphasise a point I made in 2005, the business of what I refer to as "valour transference" (Highlander fans will recognise this). Even totally green v_0 agents can get a lucky break and catch a "big fish" who was infiltrating your lands. They can jump up to v_2 or v_3 in one year, as a result. Always chase up the agent capture reports by inspecting your agent(s) in the provinces mentioned in the report(s).

If you have loads of them all in one place, The top agent in the province will now begin hoovering up all subsequent targets (top agent = first bite, as per Cambyses II/Caravel's posts) and stop the lesser agents from valouring up as fast as they might otherwise do.

A v_3 or v_4 assassin I would still keep on friendly soil but I'd take him out of the training grounds and make him the travelling "personal bodyguard" of the king, the heir or a top-notch general who I don't want to lose. In a game where BWT's and BF's have been modded out, you're really going to need them in this kind of role. They also stand a reasonably good chance of catching a high-valour enemy agent gunning for the personage he is protecting and a handful of those will bump him up to the 5 stars needed for missions on foreign soil far faster than catching large numbers of low valour agents (it takes eight kills of v_0 enemies to progress from 4* to 5* but only one or two high-valour agents, by comparison).

The corollorary of this is that if you send your high-star agent on a foreign mission and he gets killed, be on your guard. There could be a demon spy or assassin coming your way.

[Caerfanan]

Once you start using spies and assassins, I find that the AI loves it so much, that they start spamming assassins of their own.

Yes sir.... On my current mercian camapgin, I started oose two generals each turn after having sent a wave of assassins against one of my enemies' heirs... They killed my 9* general!!!

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Could we have a sticky for this, preferably at the MTW Guides section?
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[Martok]

Stickied.

[King Kurt]

I am having problems finding the guide - when I follow the link the site is unavailable - any chance of it being put within the forum itself?

[dimitrios the samian]

Well done Martok & Mouza ...

[Mouzafphaerre]

Well done Martok & Mouza ...

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It's Mithrandir who moved it here from the EH and Martok who made it sticky.
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[Martok]

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It's Mithrandir who moved it here from the EH and Martok who made it sticky.
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But unless I'm greatly mistaken, it was you, my friend, that thought to ask Mithrandir to move it here in the first place. So thanks are still in order.

[Martok]

I am having problems finding the guide - when I follow the link the site is unavailable - any chance of it being put within the forum itself?

Can you get to it in the Main Hall now?

[Ludens]

I think sbroadbent's site is no longer available. However, I have the guide on my computer and can upload it to the Org if there is any interest.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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