Papacy Pacification

[NodachiSam]

I guess spurred on my EYG's HRE thread I started a HRE game a little while ago. I began in high and only on normal GA.

Anyways, I used to be allied with the Pope and even crusaded against my former but excomunnicated ally the French. It was their choice to abandon our alliance by way of a alliance triangle. He helped defend one of my provinces and we were good buddies in that two zealous, ruthless, intollerant dictators who had ambitions to reunite all of the old Roman empire under a single government (secular and sectarian respectively) kind of way.

I don't remember how exactly but the two of us went to war. He attacked me after unallying when he saw an opportunity or I was excommunicated and we we neutral or some sort of combination and I ended up taking Rome and the Papal states. I put lots of soldiers in Rome and left the Papal States fairly empty but the vast majority of his men showed up in Rome anyways so I decided to leave it to him since it meant guarding fewer provinces.

It has been a long time since we've fought, I'm no longer excomunicated, and I really want to crusade but he will not accept a truce despite my persistance. I have a bishop who has been bringing the subject up for years and now a cardinal but no dice. He really holds a grudge. I do have inquisitors leveling up on his generals by the way, would this affect it? Do you guys have any suggestions?



Here is what the map looks like right now, sorry that this shot doesn't include all of Italy. I have recently taken Kiev and need to fight off a huge turkish invasion force that took advantage of me finally losing my ship in the black sea. Another one has taken its place so if I win it, it will be a massive blow to them since they'll lose a heck of a lot of routers or get a big ransom because they have some valuable governers.

[Weebeast]

The French are about to be off-mainland. You only need to kick them out of Mercia. Extend the war a little longer so that they run out of money. Capture their soldiers. If they run out of money they won't be able to build ships in Cyprus thus you don't have to worry about them killing your children anymore. March to Mercia!

I do that a lot to Byzantine and Sicily. LOL I don't have to worry about re-emergence.

[edit] I thought you're talking about the French lol. Anyway, if you're no longer excommunicated then why are you not able to launch crusade?

The only easiest option you have is to eliminate the Pope. Then after that evacuate Rome. Don't forget to destroy all buildings for extra florins.

[ajaxfetish]

Perhaps eliminating him again and then leaving Rome to go rebel until he returns will put you back at peace? Otherwise I don't know how to get back on his good side. I suppose overcoming excommunication is easier than ending war.

Gaah . . . why must peace be so difficult?! (new game idea? Medieval: Total Peace--everyone can train hippies, liberal diplomats, and humanitarian workers, but NO soldiers!)

[EatYerGreens]

@NoDachiSam,

I read a thread, somewhere, suggesting that factions will stubbornly decline offers of ceasefire for as long as any of their starting provinces are in enemy hands.

Nevertheless, in my game, I voluntarily handed back Rome and he still holds the Papal States but STILL refuses a ceasfire. He did briefly control Tuscany, with my force under siege in the fort, so I'm left wondering if it keeps track of every province it has ever owned and won't ceasefire until it's got all of them back again. Gah!

In the meantime, I'd go with ajaxfetish's advice. You'll have to wipe out the Papacy's three stacks in Rome and complete the siege so that the Papacy is eliminated completely. Put down any rebellions until you've had 2-3 years of stability then pull all of your forces out of Papal States and Rome, so that loyalty falls below 120% and wait for re-emergence. With luck, the Pope will re-emerge in both places at once but, if not, he'll soon retake the other empty one. Since there was no battling, hopefully he will be neutral to you and you can crusade once more. If the territory changeing hands is counted as a war, then try obtaining ceasefire again at this point. If he attacks your lands, it doesn't trigger an excom.

Just curious:- why do you have no ports in Genoa & Tuscany? Is this XL Mod - limited trade income and all that?

[Roark]

Don't forget to burn everything before you pull out of the Papal lands.

I tend to try and avoid the re-emergence altogether:

1. Take the Papal States and burn everything.
2. Move out of the Papal States
3. Wait for the Papacy to retake the province.
4. Take Rome and keep it.

The Papal States doesn't have a good income and, if the Pope has to start from scratch on the tech-tree, you'll have many a year of peace before he's in a position to strike again..

[NodachiSam]

I've had a busy week but now I can relax again, hehe.

Weebeast: Hehe, guessed so. I usually don't try to take out the Pope I killed the pope when I invaded and the garrison was rebel or too small to retake the papal states or something I don't remember. I'll demainland the French eventually but I need to pacify the locals first in wessex first. Both the english and French have very week garrisons though. Oddly the rebels in the north could all kick their arses.

ajaxfetish: Lol That is a good idea and I might try it.

EYG: Thanks for the information. That pope is trouble isn't he? Perhaps I will let Rome rebel so when the Pope comes back he doesn't have to attack one of my provinces. Rome really is a very significant province symbolically but given the situation I think I would prefer to keep him there since it can be guarded with fewer troops.

I would love to start some med trade but the waters have been hostile for a long time with every cath faction at war with me at one point or another. More importantly I've built my faction on a knife's (edit: safe's edge, yeesh) edge financially. I want to stablize for a while now since I am apparently the biggest faction for now.

Roark: I burnt everything the first time I came in and didn't rebuild anything hehe. The pope only has a fort in Rome and hasn't built anything new in a while so I figure he's broke. Hehe Thanks for the advice though.

[EatYerGreens]

I do like the state of that map though. Large, well defined, empires and everyone of them in a geographically appropriate position (give or take England and France being practically extinct). None of this patch-work mess we usually see. I remember one pre-VI conquest game I did where the French had somehow stayed alive, despite having been pushed east as far as Livonia/Lithuania sort of area.

I think the best way of eliminating the re-emergence nuisance is to squeeze a faction down until it has just one province left and then let it sit there in the mess of its own debt. In conquest mode you could have a series of climactic last battles (four or five per year) and get the whole thing over with before any re-emergence has time to occur.

[NodachiSam]

I like the map too, hehe. I have no real rival at this point, which is nice. The geography makes it easy for villagers to figure out who is boss I suppose. I think geographically, such an empire might be sustainable, with the exception of Wessex it is all connected with no gaps by sea. The vast majority of its borders are water or land bottlenecks.

That is really bizarre with the French. Haha, I guess they would've started learning the local language better for their aristocracy to better keep the locals under control. Their new language: Slavench,

Any expansion from this point on will probably be defensively minded. I've played a bit and I'm in the process of wiping the French and the English off of Britain so they don't bite me in the arse later though I will have to maintain really high loyalty to avoid potential and troublesome reemergances. I will likely leave the Scotts and Northumbrians in peace potentially for ever. It is too lamentable that I have to destroy the English but as I stated, I want a peaceful border there. As well I worry that if I do not capture the French king they may be eliminated and possibly return again. Hopefully they will start learning Freek, or Grench. Hehe.

The Mongols, Byzatines, and Spanish have attacked me (not all at once) but they likely won't be a problem. However, I am in the process of breaking the turks so I can control the black sea and not worry about invasions from there. I recently took Trebezond and Nicea to further secure Constantinople and stop the Turk ships.

By the way, I now have an inquisitor that with roast a pope status but the new guys are just as stubborn as the old in a mere ceasefire. I'm not asking them anything unreasonable after all!

[EatYerGreens]

By the way, I now have an inquisitor that with roast a pope status but the new guys are just as stubborn as the old in a mere ceasefire. I'm not asking them anything unreasonable after all!

I have had two inquisitors busying themselves for some years now, with one 5 star and one 4 star, gaining most of those frying members of the Sicilian re-emergence in Naples. The Pope's two Inquie's were in permanent residence their, failing to gain a single star while mine popped in and out for their fry-ups. Eventually, zeal dropped to 30% and I had to move on. Surprisingly, the Papal loyalists in Rome provided the richest seam of low piety stack leaders. He has lost so many Acumen 4/5 King's of Rome in a row that all he has left are acumen 2/3 duffers and he's stopped even bothering to appoint a gov! They get a +1 command for the title but he's learning his lesson. No stars gained for my 4* fryer but that may have to wait for his 32nd victim... heh heh!

Curiously, both of mine get a zero % chance of frying faction leaders, the Pope included (but he's piety 6 and the drop-off for piety above 2 seems to be quite steep). What rating is your Pope-fryer?

Incidentally, I may have made a clumsy move, in the push for Inquisition victims. I fried an English target, in Navarre and the screeny I took makes it look like he was a Rank 4 general. This seems to have pulled the cork, metaphorically, from the Pyrenees bottleneck. Shortly afterwards, the Almohads broke through and the English King ended up captured and killed. Not long before that, the English had eliminated the Spanish re-emergence and maybe hadn't recovered troop numbers yet. Taking valour boost off their troops gave the Almos the edge, perhaps. I also fried their Acumen 9 Earl of Wessex and Lord Great Chamberlain, so their economy took a hit too. Interestingly, I finally got a ceasefire offer from them, after maybe a century of being at war and I accepted, in the hope of getting North Sea Trade started up (I finally got a keep built in Saxony after considering it safe enough to build there again, following the Danes whipping their behinds).

I may pay for this in a few years time. The Almos have a Citadel.... in Portugal, of all places!! How many years rebellion-free to get that done??? Oh, and another one in Valencia, so they're obviously not short of a bob or two. (I'm still skint). Meanwhile, the Turk tide is coming from the other direction (but the Horde should arrive when I play the next turn).

So, I'm looking to be squashed in a vice and I'm in a bind since the Almos' ports make up the better part of my meagre trade income.

Gah! I've digressed badly. That waffle belongs in the HRE Headache thread.

To get us back on track, I'll repeat the question - what rating is your Pope-fryer?

[NodachiSam]

(I sincerly hope that the images in this post won't bog you guys down, because there are a lot)

Well I have a team of inquisitors all working in Rome :) I have two normal ones with about 6 stars and my grand inquisitors had about 5 stars each when I started frying popes but now have 6. The trick is to make them into an atheist. You can do this by sending in inquisitors many times, they become more devote but they will eventually succumb to using reason too much, poor guys (They wouldn't get it if they merely ceasefired ) At this point they usually are under 3 piety and if your zeal is 100% with 5star GIs you get a 25% chance for try so with both of them working you'll eventually get him. When a new one shows up you can send all your inqs except maybe 1 to continue hitting his other stack at the pope. Even though the normal inqs have 0% chance they still contribute to the Pope's rationalism.



That must be very awkward.


year 1210
Such sweet memories from long ago, when Emporer and Pope saw eye to eye.


year 1222


year 1228


year 1232
Finally the northern Italian lords were brought to heel. They're disregard for the Emperor's authority has ended however their king still has holdings elsewhere.


year 1236
The dastardly Sicilians have taken from me Greece, for which I crusaded so many years ago. It would be 5 decades before I would reclaim it, after I had taken Sicily itself.


year 1237


year 1241


year 1254


year 1260


year 1273
The Danes invade Saxony, which is an embarrasment for the Emperor, a situation that would be fully rectified within two decades time.

As a sort of counterbalace to that humiliating loss, the long time enemies the Hungarians have finally been defeated.

Rudolf the seconds reign certainly was interesting. In the next decade the Turkish wars would begin and last to the current day.


year 1287
France was my long time ally but they chose to ally with an enemy and eventually were excommunicated so I crusaded against them.


year 1296
This is the year that that Rudolf the second, now refered to as Rudolf the great, took the holy city of constantinople. After a few fierce battles Turkish power was finally broken though German power could not expand too far into aisian minor without dangerously overextending itself so time was spent in consolidation.


year 1308
Germany's enemies pretty much include everyone who has ever shared a border with me. The French to some extent however have some right to be mad since I attacked them first, as opposed to all the others.


year 1313
Expansion into Turk lands occured in this decade. Kiev, that piece of land in the northern Baltic,Trebezond, and Nicea were taken to further hinder the Turks and to take vital ports that allowed for the troublesome sea invasions previous. In a few years time, Anatolia and Rum were also taken.


year 1329
At this point the spanish have become intolerable and can no longer be ingnored. I have not attacked them yet the continue to attack me while neglecting the much more threatening Egyptian forces eating at their southern provinces. They too have refused any sort of peace. The German nobility will not stand for this and begin to formulate capturing Iberia in their future plans.

The false Roman Empire (from HRE perspective of course) and the French, in their warlikeness, invaded and occupied Nicea for over two years. The initial counter attack was unsuccessful but the second one was much more devasting to the Emperor's foes.

Also of note is the Turkish civil war, which further serves to weaken their empire.

year 1332
This idiocy is not welcome, notice how Corboda has no a single soldier to fight off the very aggressive Egyptians.


year 1340

A Spanish civil war breaks out and Corboda and Portugal gain independance hough Corbode is recaptured. The Egyptians take adavantage of the weakened Spandiards as does the Holy Roman Emperor choose to make his move. With great fortune, the Pope has FINALY allowed the Germans to crusade against the Egyptians. ... even though we are technically at war and I am excommunicated. I shall launch many cursades and hopefully the Pope will give it away to some heavily indepted Catholic island king.

[EatYerGreens]

Now that IS interesting! Crusades permitted whilst excommunicated is strange enough but while at war with the Pope too? Bang goes that theory, then.

I wonder what causes him to block this action now. In my game, it's not as if he's allied to the faction(s) I make attempts to target.

Wierd.

[Ludens]

Is that inquisitor trying to burn one of his own faction's generals?

[NodachiSam]

Now that IS interesting! Crusades permitted whilst excommunicated is strange enough but while at war with the Pope too? Bang goes that theory, then.

I wonder what causes him to block this action now. In my game, it's not as if he's allied to the faction(s) I make attempts to target.

Wierd.

Oops, my mistake, I launched the crusade after he decalred the Eggies an enemy and was excommed after. I've continiously been retiring the Pope vindictively every few years now. Excomms hardly affect me anymore. Yea though, we are still enemies but he allows me to crusade now which is nice. I've actually finished the game already, shortly after my last update I caused a civil war and burnt the last spanish king sending all of Iberia into chaos. I bribed Portugal and then I won with a minor victory. I think since it is a GA game I will go back again and win the long way. I want to do some damage to Egypt first and the Turks too. I suppose I will take the coast from Asia minor down to Egypt and take all of Iberia and Morocco.

Is that inquisitor trying to burn one of his own faction's generals?

Yep. This guy never once touched one of my guys though he could've done a great amount of damage if he did. He even passed from my port in venice to Rome and few times only hitting the Popes men and the Spaniards. I would offer him his own district he obviously has great respect for the emperor

[Ciaran]

Nice campaign, and pretty quickon expansion, too. Personally, I´m still more or less stuck on the spot after a hundred years in my HRE/High game. Well, now the rebellion within my borders is stamped to the ground and a lot of rebel provinces are all around it´s time for a little expansion.

Domingo de Guzman, now that´s a troublesome fellow: I´ve got the same one trying my generals. By the way, I´ve got the feeling the death of a common general doesn´t matter the least, for his sucessor is a precise copy of him

[DukeofSerbia]

The best way for dealing with Pope if you are Romancatholic faction is to burn him as I do always with grand inquisitor.

[HopAlongBunny]

You can get a truce with him the same way as any other faction. Defeat his army and make him withdraw to his castle. Withdraw your troops and send an emissary to offer peace/alliance. It works: present campaign I trounced his largely garbage army and he withdrew to his castle; I withdrew and was already at peace with him when I dropped my emissary on him_came up as "offer alliance". The Papal keep is garrisoned with 37 men good and true.

[Ciaran]

Yes, of course, but that won´t get you recommunicated. Because that´s the Pope as the Head of Vatican acting, not the pope as, well, Pope. The same way, you can be excommunicated and still remain the Pope´s ally.