Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Killing the trouble makers may be realistic, but letting a city rebel and then slaughtering everyone, trouble makers, non-trouble makers etc. 75% of the population is unrealistic. When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
You can bet they wanted to do so, regardless :>Originally Posted by Dayve
With the implementation of squalor as it is in game, there is really no way to go about handling large populations. There were obviously historical cities of similiar or larger size that were not constantly in a state of insurrection. This is a feedback game mechanic that really has nothing to do with history, it's only there to curb the power curve of population.
Would be nice if there was some sort of penalty for killing your own people, it's simply too encouraging to pillage your own cities after you get the last level of buildings. Perhaps a mod that only allowed recruiting decent troops above a certain size -- that would even be historically accurate as it was extremely difficult to maintain large standing armies prior to the Industrial revolution due to the relatively tiny fraction of the population you could afford to have away fighting instead of working.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
But once cities reach a certain size they get the plague anyway...This trims down the population nicely... I think it's more realistic and more of a challenge to try to hold on to your cities rather than letting them rebel, because then it's more fun to slaughter them knowing you tried to hold the city and are now exterminating as punishment for rebelling against you, and to set an example to the rest of your empire to show them that rebellion will not be tolerated...Plus i honestly don't have a problem with holding cities, the farest i've played so far was 400AD. I got bored after that as i was unstoppable and able to win any war simply by throwing money and men at it, since i had the population and cash to do that...I was able to steamroll any opponents...Plus even at 400AD, a lot of my cities had over 30,000 population and i kept them happy with monthly/daily games, normal and low taxes, and relatively small garrisons...The largest garrison i had was 8 limitanei in Corduba. I don't use peasants as i find it too unrealistic.
So when an earth quake hit Corduba and killed off 9 thousand people i was happy.<- that's how i looked. The city face was green for the first time in the campaign haha. I've gone off track... Where was i? AH yes, it would be nice if there were penalties to exterminating a city, but there should be bonuses to doing it too...If other cities found out you slaughtered a city for being rebellious, wouldn't it calm them down? Also exterminating a city should make that city useless and unprofitable and should really have an impact on your income...But it doesn't...Sometimes it's even the opposite in this game.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Well, in the ancient world "payment in kind" for an army was to be let loose on the population of a captured city. People like Alexander the Great, who is viewed as either heroic or at least exceptional in most Western accounts, features as a demonic figure in Zoastrian (theyre actually still around today in parts of Iran, along with their fire which has apparently never been let go out in at least 2,300 years...) and Biblical/Islamic texts (apparently Alexander will return to lead the armies of Satan or somesuch) due to the massacres his army meted out to the empire they conquered. Realistically, as an emperor of a large, dispersed and unwieldy empire where it might take months to relay even news of a rebellion back to the capital you rule by making rebellion as unattractive as possible. That definitly includes nailing people to crosses if theyre so passionate about the sewer system overflowing that they take up arms about it.Killing the trouble makers may be realistic, but letting a city rebel and then slaughtering everyone, trouble makers, non-trouble makers etc. 75% of the population is unrealistic. When in the Roman empire did they let every city they owned rebel, then take it back and slaughter 75% of its population? They didn't...
Either way, to play the WRE campaign realistically youd have to engineer your ultimate defeat and overrun by the rampaging barbarian hordes. If the Romans made the right choices in the late 4th century, study of the Roman Empire might be current events rather than ancient history. We have the chance to "game" a potential alternative to their decisions, however inaccurate and unrealistic the rules of the game are. And the rules are hopelessly unrealistic to begin with anyway.
Perhaps a permantly higher level of unrest in the aftermath of an extermination? The locals keeping alive the memory of some past crime against them by "the man" leading to sympathy with future rebellions. Another 10% with every extermination or something. Extermination becomes a short term solution for dealing with an irretrievable situation but it increases long term instability...Would be nice if there was some sort of penalty for killing your own people, it's simply too encouraging to pillage your own cities after you get the last level of buildings. Perhaps a mod that only allowed recruiting decent troops above a certain size -- that would even be historically accurate as it was extremely difficult to maintain large standing armies prior to the Industrial revolution due to the relatively tiny fraction of the population you could afford to have away fighting instead of working.
Mind you its long been a bug bear of mine that the distance to the captial penalty should be offset by ports/paved roads etc etc. Surely the penalty should be based on "lag" in communication rather than simple distance alone. Bah, If we started poking holes in the logic of the Public Order mechanics we'd be here for weeks.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Dayve,
I too feel a bit awkward having to slaughter my own people and it´s a last resort but the game simply don´t give you enough options to handle this problem. You can rest ashore though that IF the WRE had to face this situation, that we do in the game, they would have spared no expense to root out the rebellion, kill the instigators and crucify all participants.
In my "3-step formula" I also kind of RP the scenario into a major change in religion, from paganism to christianity, which is quite historical. This way you can simply look at the exterminations as a kind of "holy war" against the pagans. After the initial "cleansing" I can´t recall having to do this again in my many games. One could raise all health related structures and invite the plague too if things spiral out of control.
So how is your "mixed game" evolving?
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
I was thinking of disbanding ALL forces , destroying ALL buildings except in Italy and start from the beginning as is in pre-republican era. Don't know how long it will last. Has anyone tried it before ?
Say: O unbelievers, I serve not what you serve, nor do you serve what I serve, nor shall I serve what you are serving, nor shall you be serving what I serve.
To you your religion, and to me my religion.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
I have a save game that I return to on a regular basis that fit your description however I kept the 4 Italian cities, Carthago, Syracuse, Caralis and Massilia. I raised all buildings in all other settlements, pulled the troops out and retook them and exterminated its population before leaving them completely. This generated som much cash that I was able to fill up the building- and unit building ques completely and still have around 50k in my treasury. I kept enough troops to have one stack holding the bridge in the Poo-valley and another the one outside Massilia.
Been playing for over 50 years and the Vandals have settled in Iberia, the Goths in south France, Franks have taken the rest of France, the Huns are settled in former Goth lands and Sarmatians has evicted ERE from Constantinople and Greece. My spies inform me that all the hording faction has atleast three settlements each and no horde units left with pretty decent garrisons so the are defenitely settled. I´m waiting to see if the Vandals actually will make the jump to Carthage and Goth will move on their target provinces.
My goal now will be to retake the Balkans and Greece so that Danube will be my NE border. I bribed three settlements in the N.Black Sea and gave them to the Sarmatians so they will not turn into a horde when I take Greece from them but rather move back to their former homelands, he he.
BTW, has anyone else noticed how hard it is with 1.3 to give away a settlement?
Last edited by PseRamesses; 10-29-2005 at 12:23.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
I tried it today and it won't work for me. I pulled out my troops, destroyed all the buildings, and let it revolt. A few of the cities become the Western Roman Rebels and the others just kill soldiers and citizens. They don't become regular rebel cities. And many of the Western Roman Rebel cities flip back to me. I can't give the cities away to anybody, not even allies. I am now about 50,000 in debt and can see no way out of it.
The most disgraceful thing, in their view, is telling lies, and the next most disgraceful thing is being in debt; but the main reason (among many others) for the proscription of debt is that, according to the Persians, someone who owes money is obliged to tell lies as well.
-Herodotus, The Histories
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Don't just disband everything haphazardly. Disband systematically, and keep checking the financial side. The first turn needs total micro-management - its your most important phase as the WRE.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
You should disband most of your cavalry and Foederati infantry they cost to much and arent that useful anyway, your generals units are more than powerful enough and foederati infantry are pathetic you need to aim for 30,000 den army upkeep for the army to be financially viable. Also get rid of some of the navy, you just cant maintain the size of the armed forces you currently have.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Only saw this now after my earlier post...
Try doing it at M/M first, that's what I did. Don't just pull out your troops, disband them. You won't need all of them at once anyway and they're expensive. Crank the tax rate to VERY HIGH in the cities you want to rebel, this gives you an immediate cash influx that you can use to set construction cues to the cities left to you. This also ensures that they WILL rebel. You will be forced to have only one defensive army probably in Italy because of your low income, and your skill in battle will be essential because it will be a while before you can send out grand legions in a mission to conquer the world. Your first turns will be defensive. Try getting a faction leader with better management skill (the guy on the island west of Rome is a good candidate). In case of a loyalist revolt, don't invest on it, chances are it will go rebel again anyway. Hope this helps.
Oh and BTW, I don't think Roman cities in BI ever turn to normal rebels so that's one thing you have to contend with.
"Why did we attack the Iceni? Why did we destroy that cargo? I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense!" - Wingman, Mission 3: The Romans Blunder, Freespace 2
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
I've found an effective and cheap method of crushing the early revolt/s is to sepertate your empire into five areas: Italy, spain, france and Briton. Abandon the south eastern provinces (put the emperor there if you wish to revert to paganism: suicide mission). Then pull all good (Foederati Infantry and above) troops in each region to the command of it's most loyal general while disabanding all Foederati Cavalry. Wait for the 'hit' to occur and then move on the most prominant cities in each area. Once these are taken systematicly retake all cities in each province and exterminate/enslave the populace. This will make it easier to convert them to your chosen faith as a bonus as well as providing nice meaty injections of cash to your struggling economy this should help beat the empire into a shape in which it will be able to realisticly oppose the hordes. The fact that your army generals and legions will now be battle hardened halps as well.
The north eastern provinces must be protected at all times The gaul army instead of being used to put down the revolt should be used to defend the borders. Have the spanish army move into Gaul once spain is consolidated and put down the uprisings with that. Always have a large army or crack troops in Nothern italy at all times. The barbarians will pour into nothern italy, my map is doted with major battle markers is a testement to this. After consolidation have a small siege army in every sub-section (3comitares, 2 archers and 2 siege engines) to put down any further revolts
The south eastern provinces will fall. However if you let them revolt then that will mean that their will be a miltary presence in the area when the horde comes buying you time to beat your empire into shape.
Quick tipes
-obliterate the Burbers and saxons quickly, if you can't hold their cities simply obliterate the faction and then move on they won't horde so their demise will lighten the load for you without hording.
-primary building targets are economic ones: Roads, harbors, trading posts
from the writtings of Augustous Maximus-the butcherer of christians and small kittens.
Roma locuta est. Causa finita est
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Hey I tried this! It was really interesting, instead of pulling your hair out from all the problems popping all over the empire, why not start from a more manageable position then build up from there, right? First, however, you have to CREATE that situation.
EVERYTHING other than the cities you want to have left MUST be forced to rebel. Disband every unit in every city outside of Italy (personally, I chose to retain Syracuse, Lepcis Magna and Caralis?) and crank taxes up to very high. Retain a sizeable force for defense though. At the next turn, your money will get a boost of around 20,000, along with most (if not all) those cities going rebel.
However, I almost immediately realized that this situation created all new problems. Now you get significantly smaller income, and pirates are all over the place disrupting what little trade you get. I decided to lose the emperor, and get a new one. First, consolidate your navy in one place so they can defend better. Next, get a better faction leader. The governor of Caralis (don't remember his name), has 6 or so management scrolls, and I set him as the faction heir. Meanwhile, all my other rebellious, nearly talentless generals (including the faction leader) were placed on a solitary brireme, and were set out to sea to look for pirate ship stacks that would sink them. I placed the new faction heir in Rome.
While you're doing this, you can actually go red or have little income for 10+ years, struggling to develop your trade. Cities will constantly join with you, only to go rebel again after a few turns. I suggest not to invest into any loyalist revolts unless you can make sure you can maintain control of the city. The Eastern Roman Empire will almost always go to war with you, but they have bigger fish to fry and so you can expect that you won't be number one in their list. The big picture is that almost everyone else will be at war with someone, and so you have a small margin of safety during this vulnerable phase. Remember that force you didn't disband? You're going to need them in case anyone starts knocking. Choose a religion: either be Christian or Pagan, I don't really care much but I personally hate those "Virtue of Poverty" traits that devoted Christian family members almost always get. Armies fielded by the Green WRE Rebels will contain many peasants, and provided you have sufficient skill, you can fend off every attack they send. Maintaining happiness in the cities you have left will also be your primary goal. Along with trade buildings, you should also get buildings that improve happiness. Considering how expensive all of this is, it will be a while before you get to a stable situation.
In my campaign, I had to wait 20+ turns to get a constant income of 5,000 per turn. Only then did I send two 3-quarter stacks to recapture Mediolanium and Greece. I have two stacks of 10 briremes and 2 triremes each, and at least my part of the sea is secure. I'm only on this part of my campaign right now, Italy is happy and secure, and I'm only beginning to stretch my iron fist once more. This is version 1.6 at just M/M, and though I'm confident that I'll win, there will probably still be setbacks. When I finish this I'll try again at VH/VH
"Why did we attack the Iceni? Why did we destroy that cargo? I can live with being a pawn if the game makes sense!" - Wingman, Mission 3: The Romans Blunder, Freespace 2
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Remember,Dayne,that Roman Empire of 4th-6th centuries A.D. was not the same as that of the Republic or the imperial Rome under the dynasty of the Antonini(Trajan,Adrian,Antoninus,Marcus Aurelius..).The Emperors could easily slaughter their own people in order to supress a rebellion
I can remember from history how the rebellion in Constantinople was supressed by Justinian.The same slaughter had also happened earlier in Thessalonica where 15,000 Romans were slaughtered by the Romano-Gothic army of Theodosius.
The same events must have happened throughout the empire at that times..
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Sorry Dayve,I misspelled your name.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Good stuff from everyone!! As this is a pretty deep game, there are many options to winning. I don't think anyone here gave bad advice. I have used a bit of everything I have learned and am only about 20 provinses from taking the whole world over.
I will continue to read the advice from here as I will be trying VH/VH next.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
This is one thing I dont like about what people think about ancient rome.They arent as bad as everyone makes them out to be.I have read various books on them.You would be surprised at how much the romans cared for the people they conquered . In judea for example, Jews were exempt from paying specific taxes and such.
Although by 400 A.D. ancient rome was no longer being ruled by enlightened despots and by just plain despots who lacked intelligence and integrity.
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
Interesting stuff. Im about to start a WRE campaign and am grateful to everyone's comments on this difficult faction.
Just one question though.. why does the empire have to be converted to christianity, as most of you did? Why not go for paganism? None of you seemed to go for that approach, especially considering the temple bonuses you get from them, plus the fact that any barbarian regions you conquer will mostly be pagan anyway..
Re: Western Roman Empire (BI faction)
I´ve played both ways and in the end you can go either way. I think most players changed religion to portray history. However the differences lies in technology and buildings. It also seems to me that it´s easier to have a loyal population with christianity but I´ve no stats to confirm that statement so it might be a bit subjective. You can also play a mix with both religions based upon what beliefs are in majority in each settlement. However you will get a small unrest penalty.
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