oh no... is it really this easy?

[TinCow]

Well, it's probably just chance but I've been struggling for the first time ever in RTW on my current WRE VH/VH campaign. I abandoned about half my territories on the second turn when I realized they were all going to revolt. After contracting and spending some time getting my finances back into the black, I managed to assemble three operational armies. My main army is defending northern Italy and is composed of the finest troops I can recruit. My second army is in southern Gaul acting as defense against the WRE Rebels and to grab territories when able. My third is a purely defensive force holding Carthage for trade purposes.

While the WRE Rebels haven't done much to me since my raze and flee decisions left them with nothing to build but peasants, the Hordes have been a major pain. So far I've had three in the area. The Sarmatians arrived very early with a four stack horde in Northern Italy. They attacked, I defended and after several battles (some won, some lost) I managed to whittle their forces down and finished them via family death. This gobbled up a large amount of my reserve finances though and crippled my Northern Italy army for a while. The second horde was the Goths, who came with a massive six stack army and marched right through Northern Italy again. I was so depleted from the Sarmatians that I gambled on letting them walk through. It worked and they went through the western Alps and took a WRE Rebel city for their new homeland. I signed an Alliance with them to keep them away from me.

When the Goths moved in I took advantage of the WRE Rebel defeat in the area to recapture a city I had abandoned to them earlier. This I did with ease with my frontier army which I kept in the city on garrison duty along with my second best general and another family member. About 3-4 turns later, the Vandal horde arrived five stacks and laid siege to this city. I beat off the first assault by a single stack, but it vastly depleated my garrison and I was beseiged again before I could repair my walls and reinforce my units. Two turns later, I was assaulted by all four remaining stacks at once. They didn't even use reinforcements, all four stacks entered the battle at once, with city completely surrounded on three sides and five breaches in the wall from the first battle. I did my best, but I was slaughtered to the last man. This coincided with the death of my Emperor to the plague and since he had superb management and influence, I went into about 5-6 years of debt. I just got back into the black and am currently scrambling to rebuild my second army because I cannot sufficiently protect all my territories in Europe with one force. If another horde comes through or the Vandals press their assault on my other cities (they have not done this so far) within the next 10 turns I may well lose this game.

While the battle AI is still easy to beat in 1:1 or 2:1 odds, I simply cannot field enough of a force as the WRE to withstand multiple hordes of chosen horde swordsmen, horde spearmen and horde horse archers. I've pulled off some miracles with my small force in Carthage, but I've had several battles with major armies in Europe where I knew I would lose and my goal was simply to whittle the enemy forces down as much as possible. I've never had this happen to me in RTW before.

[Doug-Thompson]

Wait a minute.

Parcelt, if there weren't any hordes attacking you and your empire was stabilized, why weren't you well on your way to meeting the victory conditions and winning the game after 45 turns?

Yes, I understand you were bored at that point, but going over to the offensive is not as trouble-free in BI as defense.

[parcelt]

To Doug-Thompson:

I probably was well on my way towards meeting victory conditions, but didn't even check (also not sure on the exact amount of turns played). Also, I was attacked (somewhat) by hordes, but nothing that would bring me in real trouble. I don't really care about winning the campaign, I care about having difficulties just surviving, in other words, a good challenge.

But I must say Tincow's reply gives me some new hope: although I was never attacked like that (4 stacks at once, now we're talking!), apparently it is possible. Hopefully I was just 'lucky' in the one campaign as WRE I played. Perhaps other factions suffered the full power of the hordes before they got to me, or something like that. I think I'll try again.

Still, I continue a bit worried. Three campaigns (my first three!) should not have been so easy.

On the positive side, I also experienced some of the improvements in battle AI reported elsewhere on the forum. Had one great battle where I let the AI control my reinforcements. The enemy was a single army but somewhat larger than my total forces (me barbarian, them romans). Through some heavy manouvering by my AI general the enemy eventually split its forces. It split its army into two, more or less similar and both quite balanced, mini-armies. Not a bad move. It left one half parked on a small hill with flanks covered by forest, and went hunting for my AI archers with the other half. The two forces soon engaged in full battle and I only saved the day by running my own general and two units of nightraiders over just in time, my AI's first spear unit had already routed. After that, it was easy enough to kill the other half on the hill. Btw, no suicidal generals on either side in this battle!

Aahh, have to back playing now. thanks guys, just talking about it makes me feel good about the game again!

[Doug-Thompson]

I probably was well on my way towards meeting victory conditions, but didn't even check (also not sure on the exact amount of turns played). Also, I was attacked (somewhat) by hordes, but nothing that would bring me in real trouble. I don't really care about winning the campaign, I care about having difficulties just surviving, in other words, a good challenge.

But I must say Tincow's reply gives me some new hope: although I was never attacked like that (4 stacks at once, now we're talking!), apparently it is possible. Hopefully I was just 'lucky' in the one campaign as WRE I played. Perhaps other factions suffered the full power of the hordes before they got to me, or something like that. I think I'll try again.

After re-reading this thread topic and frogbeategg's very unhappy initial experience, I think this game does have a significant issue:

You might get a good fight for survival. You might not.

More precisely, your fight for survival might come early, it might come later, it might come too late to be a serious threat or it might not come at all.

I don't see any way to account for the very wide variety of experiences people are reporting with the strategy game.

Hordes are wild. Crusades in M:TW were usually focused on the Levant provinces. If not, they had a specific region as a goal.

Hordes are just looking for a home. They might attack your province. They might not.

[TinCow]

Hordes are wild. Crusades in M:TW were usually focused on the Levant provinces. If not, they had a specific region as a goal.

Hordes are just looking for a home. They might attack your province. They might not.

Exactly. I can tell you for a FACT that if the second horde (Goth) hadn't just walked peacfully through my territory I would have lost that game right there and that was only about 20 turns in. At the same time, if neither of my two horde fights had occurred, I would be sitting pretty with half my abandoned territory reclaimed already. I must say though, hordes seem far more threatening when they're wandering. After taking one homeland, they don't move anywhere near as much even if they have several full stacks left.

[Orda Khan]

Well I took Constantinople and then another town ( Carnulicum? SP ) My family member in that town died and I was booted out within 3 turns...so things are not easy here

......Orda

p.s. Thanks [DnC] I will give the ` a try

[Kraxis]

p.s. Thanks [DnC] I will give the ` a try

Because that key is to the rleft of bckspace on my keyboard I just want to say you need to hit the key to the left of 1 and below Esc.

[Grifman]

I don't see any way to account for the very wide variety of experiences people are reporting with the strategy game.

Actually, it's quite easy and you explain it yourself below:

Hordes are wild. Crusades in M:TW were usually focused on the Levant provinces. If not, they had a specific region as a goal.

Hordes are just looking for a home. They might attack your province. They might not.

You explained it quite well :)

There's inevitably going to be a certain bit, indeed, perhaps major bit of randomness. Who do the Huns attack first? How well does that attack go? Where does that tribe go next? Do they attack another tribe or invade the empire? Which of your cities will revolt due to various circumstances - I've had different ones each game. That's not scripted I'm certain, there's randomness in all that.

I thought things were going well, I was making 5,000+ per turn as the WRE, then I get the Vandals, Goths and Huns all heading for Illyricum/Pannonia/N Italy. That was a bitch.

[Doug-Thompson]

Well, Grifman, all I can say is "Oops. Good catch."

Obviously, that sentence ought to read: "I don't see any other way to account for the very wide variety of experiences people are reporting with the strategy game."

[Grifman]

Well, Grifman, all I can say is "Oops. Good catch."

Obviously, that sentence ought to read: "I don't see any other way to account for the very wide variety of experiences people are reporting with the strategy game."

Ah, I thought you were too smart for your own good there :)

That said, I love the unpredictability ao far, though I wish there was more action on the Rhine frontier. That seemed to be a pretty big problem for the Romans, but that area seems quiet compared with the Danube. But that may just be this game - but it seems like the impact of the Huns is rather limited in the NE of the empire.

[Puzz3D]

There's inevitably going to be a certain bit, indeed, perhaps major bit of randomness.

Well it's no surprise. MikeB already said the BI campaign had a lot of randomness designed into it.

[parcelt]

Ok, I just edited the title to reflect the fact that I now seem to be appropriately crushed - as it should be - after starting a new WRE campaign. The financial problems faced by that faction are not as bad as they seem: consolidate your holdings and disband most of those 300+/turn upkeep garrison troops, and your boats. Build some peasants instead (As a sidenote: a good Ironman rule would be not to allow that. Greatly increases WRE's difficulty as you get hammered between a need for garrisons to quell unrests, yet cannot afford them. I am currently restricting myself to 1 peasant unit per city).

But even if that makes your financial problems go away (I made 1k-2k after turn 4), it leaves you weakened. And unlike in my previous campaign, now the hordes hit in full force. It was the Gothes that killed my best remaining troops (remaining after the purging of turn 1, reminded me a bit of what Stalin did right before WWII.... but I'm digressing), after I was so stupid to meet them in the field instead of hiding behind my walls. There is now almost nothing left between them and Rome itself.... great!

I think all this is further proof of the point made above - that BI contains a very high degree of randomness. I am not sure yet whether this in the end will be a good or bad thing: may improve longevity of the game, but can also sometimes lead to boring campaigns. Time (and playing a hell of a lot of campaigns!) will tell.

[Captain Fishpants]

<snip>

I don't see any way to account for the very wide variety of experiences people are reporting with the strategy game.

Hordes are wild. Crusades in M:TW were usually focused on the Levant provinces. If not, they had a specific region as a goal.

Hordes are just looking for a home. They might attack your province. They might not.

Here's a thing. We had hoped that people would find it interesting to have different experiences when playing the game. *sigh* With RTW we were beaten with sticks because it was all too static, now we're in danger of being beaten with sticks because things are unpredictable.

Hordes generally go for the richest and least defended nearby target - quite reasonable behaviour, if you think about it. However, the AI does know which regions are on its 'victory conditions' list and will aim towards those areas, given a chance.

There's more randomness in the campaign because the horde factions may 'cascade' across the map with a domino effect - one horde triggers another and so on. Taking an attractive settlement may well trigger the appearance of a new horde, which will head off *away* from the aggressor. However, it's equally possible that the AI might decide that a settlement is just a bit too well defended and bypass it in search of richer pickings. In this second case, the first domino never falls.

On the other hand - as people are starting to realise - BI does not repay a passive strategy, either with a victory or as a gaming experience. Then again - strategy games aren't really supposed to do that, are they? You need to get out there and take the sword and fire to your enemies!

[Zatoichi]

Hey Cap'n! I'm loving the 'randomness' - like Kraxis I thought I'd got my ERE campaign settled and was gearing up for a push on Rome, when a combination of Hordes, Eastern Roman Rebels and religious unrest conspired to whack me back on all fronts. I think that's great, and a vast improvement on the RTW dynamic!

Kudos to you and the rest of the team!

[Jambo]

Here's a thing. We had hoped that people would find it interesting to have different experiences when playing the game. *sigh* With RTW we were beaten with sticks because it was all too static, now we're in danger of being beaten with sticks because things are unpredictable.

Well, I for one, absolutely love the increased randomness of the campaign! I've lost my first two campaigns which to my knowledge has never happened to me before with any other TW title. I've also been playing on only H/H instead of my standard VH/H just to allow me some space to get to grips with the intricacies of the new campaign. So, kudos to CA for BI.

However, it would have been even more excellent had some of the fantastic BI features been backward-compatible with the original Imperial Campaign. I would loved to have experienced the randomness of hordes, rebellions and atmospheric night battles in 1.3... alas.

[SpencerH]

Here's a thing. We had hoped that people would find it interesting to have different experiences when playing the game. *sigh* With RTW we were beaten with sticks because it was all too static, now we're in danger of being beaten with sticks because things are unpredictable.

It wasnt being too static that caused the 'beatings' it was the direction the game had taken away from the previous TW games.

I havent bought or played BI yet, but from my reading here the unpredictability of the gameplay has been seen as a very welcome addition. The problems have come from experienced TW players who are looking for more difficulty but are 'unlucky' enough to have easy campaign starts.

[a_b_danner]

The problems have come from experienced TW players who are looking for more difficulty but are 'unlucky' enough to have easy campaign starts.

I haven't had an 'easy' campaign yet, and i used to mod the Bouies ROMA mod because it was to easy. Vanilla economy is a real bitch on VH. Battles are reasonably hard (on VH). Hordes are an awesome feature, especially because they are completely modable - some factions can keep a strong army through multiple hordes, and others can be modded to weaken substantially after the first horde. Modders will be able to put this to excellent use for a long time.

[Grifman]

Here's a thing. We had hoped that people would find it interesting to have different experiences when playing the game. *sigh* With RTW we were beaten with sticks because it was all too static, now we're in danger of being beaten with sticks because things are unpredictable.

Captain, I just want to say that this is a great "expansion", IMO the equivalent of a whole new game with the same engine. And more on point, the unpredictability of the hordes is great. Just when you think you may have things under control, a horde is thrown across your borders due to one tribe pushing another out. I can only imagine how hard this was to pull off effectively, but it appears CA has done it. Great game so far, so much more than the usual buildup and conquer mode of most 4X games.

[Havard]

Here's a thing. We had hoped that people would find it interesting to have different experiences when playing the game. *sigh* With RTW we were beaten with sticks because it was all too static, now we're in danger of being beaten with sticks because things are unpredictable.

I, for one, love the randomness and unpredictability.

[Prodigal]

The unpredicability factors a hoot, I keep on trying to work out a strategy based on my last defeat, put it into action in a new game, then something goes horribly wrong...They weren't supposed to do that!