Vienna's Grudge: Should Turkey join the EU ?

[Shahed]

Greetings !

This is a poll-rant.

I don't know if you all have read the xenophobia and most defintely Islamophobia about Turkey joining the EU. Such pathetic arguments against a Muslim state as part of the EU. It's incredible that the Austrians even had the gaul to come up with arguments on ethic-religious lines. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. So much for religious and cultural tolerance.

from Vienna:

"Now this has suddenly become a broader debate and people who are not interested in European affairs fear that it will mean foreigners coming to Austria, and not even Christians"

The problem is again one of education. Remarkably the backward Islamic Mustafa knows a hell of great deal more than the highly cultured and educated Jorg in Vienna. Jorg's sitting in his coffee shop complaining about how Turks and "Mosliims" have taken over his country. He does'nt even know where Austria got it's tradition of coffee in the first place! ! He talks about how Mustafa beats his wife but does’nt even know that Turkey gave women the vote in 1930, Spain in 1931 and France not until 1944. Now Jorg’s come up with a novel idea about Turkish religious extremeism and how “they” ("Mosliims") take their religion too seriously, of course he omits that St Paul, writer of several books of the New Testament, and St Nicholas, forerunner of Santa Claus were both born in Turkey.

This minor rant is not intended to offend anyone.

[ichi]

This seems rather important, for without Turkey there is no hope for Georgia or some other countries, and less hope for a bridge between Christian Europe and Islamic Middle East.

It also seems important for Turkey, which has made substantial progress recently in their government, possibly due to the prospects of being admitted.

ichi

[Shahed]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

[Meneldil]

Last I heard, only 57% of the Turkish population is willing to join the EU. This number was much higher a few years ago, and this is basically what I would have expected.
Europeans have been saying 'you'll join EEC/EU...someday' for about 50 years. I can understand that Turks are now kinda annoyed with that and there's IMO a feeling of reject of the EU.

Now, as for Turkey itself, I think we should accept it, mainly because it's one of the few non religious Muslim country. I fear that if Turkey doesn't join the EU, it will either become an ultra-nationalistic right wing country or yet another Muslim ultra religious country.
But there's also quite a lot of problem if Turkey join. The low payed jobs, the nationalistic groups (I think they are called the Grey Wolves or something like that), aswell as some of the more extremistic turkish 'customs'.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

Turkey applying to EEC was 1963, IIRC... But nevermind :)

It's true that everyone else came first, Northern europe (UK, Danemark), Southern Europe (Spain, Greece, Portugal), Eastern Europe (the latest addition). And, in my opinion, that was justified. It was probably more urgent for EU to anchor Spain, Greece and Portugal in the beginning of the 80's than Turkey.

It's much underestimated, but there is a good case to make about EU promoting slowly but strongly, democracy in Europe... 40 years ago it was not a done deal.
Turkey is a bit of a case study for this, a case study for soft power. It has been kind of democratic (with a heavy militaristic flavour) since Ataturk, but it has moved in the right direction, thanks to Turks first, but also partly to EU requirements.

I am all in support of Turkey joining EU. It will be good kicking up a bit EU, changing its structure, and giving it a different status, and it will be good for Turkey; securing its secular tradition while keeping military influence at bay.

Also, that might prove to be the biggest change in the Middle East and the real catalsyt for change. Syria and Iran bordering EU are not going to be the same countries at all...

Louis,

[GonZ]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

[Duke Malcolm]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

That is my reason for not wanting the Turks to join...

[Komutan]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

Please check the location of Cyprus, one of the EU members. Surely Turkey is geographically more European than Cyprus. Besides, the European part of Turkey is larger than some European countries. Anyway this is a political union; geographical location is not very important.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Because Turkey has .2 sq. miles of land (gross underexaggeration, but still) in Europe, it should get to join the EU? No! America has land in Europe. Ramstein Airbase, the graves at Normandy, embassies, etc. Why can't we join the EU? Most of us are European by decent, anyway.

It's preposterous to let Turkey join the EU, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Turks. I like Turks, we have Mouza and LEN, plus all the good food and hot women. But they're simply not a European Nation. Ethnically, they're not European, Culuturally they're not European and even their nation holds somthing like 98% of it's land in Asia minor.

Besides, as an Austrian, I can proudly say that Turkey is not European.

EDIT: King Henry, it was Aetolia back then, a majorly greco-persian area (the western coast and such was Greek, further in it became Persian).

Also, if you guys want to be part of a Union, form the Middle Eastern union or somthing, if you can find any other relativly nice, freedom loving governments (it is my understanding Turkey is one of the best governments in the Middle East to date, I might be wrong though).

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mr Apache, I never realized the possibilities.

I will write to my MP and suggest that he campaign for the immediate entry of China to the E.U. Excellent idea, he'll probably go for it as he's such a PC thug ("oh how glorious, a pacific rim nation at the heart of Europe, won't we be so jolly and multi-cultural then.").

[Duke Malcolm]

Might I ask who your MP is, and of which party?

[LeftEyeNine]

Where we live is a totally strange place : No direction offers anything..

That's why I continuously ask why we have to attend a union.

[BDC]

We need Turkey, Turkey would probably do better with us. So everyone wins. Except the racists, who lose.

Ignoring all the issues the EU has at the moment anyway.

[Sjakihata]

A few notes.

Basically, there are several arguments, put forth by Austria and others, however, upon on closer scrunity they are all invalid, a little list follows:

1) The huge population will be too much for EU, they (turks) will immigrate everywhere into europe (implicit: they will disrubt our normal order of the day).

2) They are moslems, follow the qoran - and are fundamentally different from us.

3) Their economy suck.

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.


These are great for one purpose. To scare. If you as a party put forth these "arguments" you'll scare people. Offer a solution and they'll vote for your party.

1 Now, number one has been disproven a number of time. When Greece, Spain, Poland etc, joined. The mass flux wasnt to be found. Locals remained to rebuild their country and make for themselves a better living.

2 Actually, the common turk is no more moslem, than the common european is christian. And all europeans know that christianity isnt really prominent. You *never* hear religious arguments, and if so, it's a minority party. They are secular, democratic and follow Allah. We are secular, democratic and follow God - Allah and God, as you know, is the same being.

3 True, it's not as developed central european countries, however, other nations have joined the EU with a LOWER BNP than what Turkey currently have, so it's not an argument. And when Turkey joins it will pull up both (turkey and EU) economies, although over a longer stretch of years.

4 Not true entirely. This argument probably holds the most weigth, however, when you look at how we (eu AND us) behave in Iraq - I don't really think we are in a position to point fingers. Of course the human rights have to be sublime, but Turkey isnt going to join tomorrow, but in 15 years. What's being discussed now is just whether to allow them to the negotiations, not joining.


Personally, im PRO Turkey full membership and ANTI eu. I dont want the EU, but now that we have it, let's have as many as possible.

[Komutan]

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.

Actually this argument is pretty weak, because human rights in Turkey improve as Turkey moves closer to EU. So people who are concerned about the human rights in Turkey should support Turkey's membership.

[Sjakihata]

I'll have to laugh. To say Turkey isnt culturally part of Europa is wrong. I mean, if we trace back European culture, when end somewhere around the ancient greeks - I wonder where Turkey is in that context?

oh, and btw, talking geography - how can Turkey (and Greece) for that matter be members of North Atlantic Treaty Organization? You'll have to look at the politics back then, to block the russians from harbour opportunities. To admit Turkey into EU would prevent further spreading of terror - it seems somewhat analogous to me, and it was done before, so it can be done again :)

[Dâriûsh]

Ethnically, they're not European, Culuturally they're not European...

So what is a European ethnicity?

And culture for that matter?

[LeftEyeNine]

well, not that I give a shit about the geographic thing but Turkey is undemocratic, torture people, and dont admit they have treated armenians and kurds... well, in a very in-humain way.

Lazul, you get the right point. We are all eating human flesh over here. Especially if you are an Armenian Christian, we'll rip you into pieces in minutes. You stand no chance..

Ok, the next program about Turkey 24/7 is a fatality show named "Midnight Express Rails Embedded Under Your House, You Dirty Jew".. Happy fairy-taling..

Nah, you killed em All in the past though.

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..

Hmm, no I wouldn't say it 'd be more right terming them this way, as they are an actual and specific group, not a general term for extreme nationalists.
Maybe this site will help some people make certain connections heh
http://www.mhp.org.tr/

Also if you google the grey wolves and a word like "paramilitary";)
here's the first site that pops up:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/story33.html

Yes, MHP is the legal political fraction that represent them. So Grey Wolves is the term used for them abroad. I see..

[Byzantine Prince]

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..

You have not been penalized for that crime. That's the difference.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Million souls of killed Jews would be enough to push Germany out of the union then ? Yes, that was past though. Forget it..

Germans are still ethnically european. Plus, you can make the same argument you did.

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Russian and Polish jews, we were at war!"

"Wasn't that some kind of war? I mean, we didn't just go murder the Greek and Armenian Christians, we were at war!"

See a differance? Neither do I. Oh, and may I add that Germany now has one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe (I know, I can't figure it out either, esp. when Poland has like, the lowest.) I don't see too many Greeks in Turkey, do you?

Also, BP beat me to it, thanks mate .

Under the same justifications that would allow Israel or Egypt into the European Union, or even the US, Canada, or Mexico. It's preposturous.

As I said, I have nothing against Turks, I like Turks. But they aren't European.

[L'Impresario]

Actually you can't attribute Austria's "reluctance" (only) to islamophobia, anxiety regarding the future of the EU etc. Neither did the government try to represent the wishes of their people(which are quite negative regarding Turkey's admission). That is merely electioneering, as of late "Turkey" has become a nice populist way of gaining votes and now is an integral part of election campaigns anywhere in Europe.
But as you'd guess, such negotiations are always a trade-off. Austria wanted to promote the Croatia membership(actually she is its most staunch supporter), which should take precedence, and make bargains on the croatian general Ante Gotovina's issue,accused of warcrimes, which is an obstacle to the whole process. So they put up a little show heh