Vienna's Grudge: Should Turkey join the EU ?

[Shahed]

Greetings !

This is a poll-rant.

I don't know if you all have read the xenophobia and most defintely Islamophobia about Turkey joining the EU. Such pathetic arguments against a Muslim state as part of the EU. It's incredible that the Austrians even had the gaul to come up with arguments on ethic-religious lines. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. So much for religious and cultural tolerance.

from Vienna:

"Now this has suddenly become a broader debate and people who are not interested in European affairs fear that it will mean foreigners coming to Austria, and not even Christians"

The problem is again one of education. Remarkably the backward Islamic Mustafa knows a hell of great deal more than the highly cultured and educated Jorg in Vienna. Jorg's sitting in his coffee shop complaining about how Turks and "Mosliims" have taken over his country. He does'nt even know where Austria got it's tradition of coffee in the first place! ! He talks about how Mustafa beats his wife but does’nt even know that Turkey gave women the vote in 1930, Spain in 1931 and France not until 1944. Now Jorg’s come up with a novel idea about Turkish religious extremeism and how “they” ("Mosliims") take their religion too seriously, of course he omits that St Paul, writer of several books of the New Testament, and St Nicholas, forerunner of Santa Claus were both born in Turkey.

This minor rant is not intended to offend anyone.

[ichi]

This seems rather important, for without Turkey there is no hope for Georgia or some other countries, and less hope for a bridge between Christian Europe and Islamic Middle East.

It also seems important for Turkey, which has made substantial progress recently in their government, possibly due to the prospects of being admitted.

ichi

[Shahed]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

[Meneldil]

Last I heard, only 57% of the Turkish population is willing to join the EU. This number was much higher a few years ago, and this is basically what I would have expected.
Europeans have been saying 'you'll join EEC/EU...someday' for about 50 years. I can understand that Turks are now kinda annoyed with that and there's IMO a feeling of reject of the EU.

Now, as for Turkey itself, I think we should accept it, mainly because it's one of the few non religious Muslim country. I fear that if Turkey doesn't join the EU, it will either become an ultra-nationalistic right wing country or yet another Muslim ultra religious country.
But there's also quite a lot of problem if Turkey join. The low payed jobs, the nationalistic groups (I think they are called the Grey Wolves or something like that), aswell as some of the more extremistic turkish 'customs'.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Also Turkey applied for membership of the ECC or was it EEC.. EEC in 1959, now it's 2005. Imagine that. This delay, like a lot of things, is also about economics, first they wish to integrate Eastern Europe since they know Turkey will come crawling later on. They also know that they need Turkey as it's strategic position has always made it a gem in any power's crown (nobody managed to get it till recently though). An EU Turkey would give Europe much more power in Middle Eastern affairs and would certainly encourage a much more appropraite view of the Muslims. People think nothing good about Muslims basically and that leads to a whole plethora of misunderstandings.

Turkey applying to EEC was 1963, IIRC... But nevermind :)

It's true that everyone else came first, Northern europe (UK, Danemark), Southern Europe (Spain, Greece, Portugal), Eastern Europe (the latest addition). And, in my opinion, that was justified. It was probably more urgent for EU to anchor Spain, Greece and Portugal in the beginning of the 80's than Turkey.

It's much underestimated, but there is a good case to make about EU promoting slowly but strongly, democracy in Europe... 40 years ago it was not a done deal.
Turkey is a bit of a case study for this, a case study for soft power. It has been kind of democratic (with a heavy militaristic flavour) since Ataturk, but it has moved in the right direction, thanks to Turks first, but also partly to EU requirements.

I am all in support of Turkey joining EU. It will be good kicking up a bit EU, changing its structure, and giving it a different status, and it will be good for Turkey; securing its secular tradition while keeping military influence at bay.

Also, that might prove to be the biggest change in the Middle East and the real catalsyt for change. Syria and Iran bordering EU are not going to be the same countries at all...

Louis,

[GonZ]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

[L'Impresario]

Actually you can't attribute Austria's "reluctance" (only) to islamophobia, anxiety regarding the future of the EU etc. Neither did the government try to represent the wishes of their people(which are quite negative regarding Turkey's admission). That is merely electioneering, as of late "Turkey" has become a nice populist way of gaining votes and now is an integral part of election campaigns anywhere in Europe.
But as you'd guess, such negotiations are always a trade-off. Austria wanted to promote the Croatia membership(actually she is its most staunch supporter), which should take precedence, and make bargains on the croatian general Ante Gotovina's issue,accused of warcrimes, which is an obstacle to the whole process. So they put up a little show heh

[Duke Malcolm]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

That is my reason for not wanting the Turks to join...

[Komutan]

For the record I'm not anti turk.

But my main objection to Turkey joining the EU is that 95% of Turkey is not in Europe. If I understand correctly everything east of the Bosphorus is in Asia.

The EU has to stop somewhere.

Please check the location of Cyprus, one of the EU members. Surely Turkey is geographically more European than Cyprus. Besides, the European part of Turkey is larger than some European countries. Anyway this is a political union; geographical location is not very important.

[Duke Malcolm]

Yes it is, it is the European Union. Cyprus is part of the European Continent, only a wee little pokey bit of Turkey is on the European Continent.

[Kagemusha]

Im against Turkeys EU membership at the moment, but not in General.If EU is going to survive at all we shouldnt take any new members at the moment.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

Yes it is, it is the European Union. Cyprus is part of the European Continent, only a wee little pokey bit of Turkey is on the European Continent.

I know I should not be doing this but sometimes one just can't stand.

1. Cyprus is not a part of any continent; it's an island.
2. If at all, it's related to the Anatolian peninsula and present NW Syria (Antiokheia in MTW). It probably broke apart and faded away from mainland in the {fill_in_appropriately} age, if its toponomy matters.
3. Whether Europe is a continent or a cultural-geographical entity is debatable but irrelevant.

.

[InsaneApache]

Im against Turkeys EU membership at the moment, but not in General.If EU is going to survive at all we shouldnt take any new members at the moment.

Let 'em in say I. Then the EU can look to the east of the Caucuses.....they could even get China shoehorned in, in a few years time. ..... if Turkey gets in the whole corrupt edifice of the EU will come crashing down as surely as the walls of Jericho after a Glen Miller concert ...BTW does this mean that wearing a 'fez' will be outlawed in Yorkshire?

[Kagemusha]

Let 'em in say I. Then the EU can look to the east of the Caucuses.....they could even get China shoehorned in, in a few years time. ..... if Turkey gets in the whole corrupt edifice of the EU will come crashing down as surely as the walls of Jericho after a Glen Miller concert ...BTW does this mean that wearing a 'fez' will be outlawed in Yorkshire?

Lol Im sure they try to expand everywhere.Let it grumble then.Then we can start a better union.Scandinavian Union..

[LeftEyeNine]

My new topic left abandoned, then. Let's continue that from here..

1- Taking EU as a geographical union that has exact borders "today" sounds a bit erroneous to me. As Sinan stated, if Cyprus is European because of its location than Turkey is double as much. But don't worry EU has really nearly reached its probable borders. The next expansion towards the East will only occur if Syria, Iraq and Iran leap some light years forward. USA would never leave Iraq to EU's hands though.

2- As being a full candidate at the threshold of EU, Turkey is a lot more hazardous playground for Al Qaeda and other Islamic fanatics from now on. Those freaks gained a lot more "excuses" to deal with Turkey.

3- I don't think we would easily be granted free roamin through EU countries with the membership approval. If I were a European, I'd hesitate opening the gates wide as well. I understand your concern easily.

4- We have been reminded the Ottoman-Austrian conflicts and battles during the latest "Vien defence". That's a general block we face when there is something between Turks and the West. Medieval mentality..

5- I still want to stay out of EU

Meneldil

The nationalistics grous are called "Ulkuculer" ( ="idealists" but not in the western meaning). Grey Wolf is an element of Turkish mythology and is considered holy - at least through nationalists' point of view.

Ulkuculer have already mixed up, there are even a bunch of Kurds among them. They are a rotten society, spreading easily in high schools, some grow as mafia leaders. There are well known Ulkucu mafia men in Turkey.

Although they think they represent Nationalism, they are far away from that. Most of them is uneducated, quick to anger, self-expression disabled, mentally and physically "gangsterized" guys.

[L'Impresario]

Thing is that the Grey Wolves are a paramilitary ultra-right group with quite a few killings, xenophobic anti-anything rallies and other "dirty" activities in their résumé. Whether they are admirers of the mythological "bozkurt", I think that would be a secondary thing when describing them heh

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

4- We have been reminded the Ottoman-Austrian conflicts and battles during the latest "Vien defence". That's a general block we face when there is something between Turks and the West. Medieval mentality..

That one got me smiling... We've all been at wars with each others for centuries. Those times are over.

Overall irrelevant.

Louis,

[lancelot]

Anyway this is a political union; geographical location is not very important.

By that logic then japan could be part of the EU one day then??..if not the whole world?

Im against turkey joining the EU...
Firstly, I dont consider them European (likewise Cyprus and former soviet states) I personally believe its not the geography that should be taken into acount, rather more the culture. Turkey is as traditionally 'European' as Japan is, therefore not what I consider viably European. Lets all stop pretending Turkey is something its not.

Second, What (if any) advantages does Turkey joining hold for the rest of europe? We have enough cheap labour moving back and forth across borders as it is, we dont need anymore... Does this mean we have to bail turkey out if it gets into trouble? Would they (could they?) do the same for us?

[Byzantine Prince]

.

I know I should not be doing this but sometimes one just can't stand.

1. Cyprus is not a part of any continent; it's an island.
2. If at all, it's related to the Anatolian peninsula and present NW Syria (Antiokheia in MTW). It probably broke apart and faded away from mainland in the {fill_in_appropriately} age, if its toponomy matters.
3. Whether Europe is a continent or a cultural-geographical entity is debatable but irrelevant.

.

Cyprus has been Greek since the beginning of recorded history, therefore it's European(we named Europe after all ). Geography doesn't matter, what matters is history, populations, and culture.

[LeftEyeNine]

That one got me smiling... We've all been at wars with each others for centuries. Those times are over.

Overall irrelevant.

Louis,

I don't want to sound as if I'm on such a paranoia as well. I mentioned that being irrelevant too.

[Sigurd]

therefore it's European(we named Europe after all )

Yes, why is it not called Europa in english? this would nicely fit in with the other continents that have names in the feminine form...

Oh... Tyrkia(Tyrkland) in the EU? ... why not?

[King Henry V]

@Sinan:
The Austrains have coffee because they pwned you in 1683 at the gates of Vienna (with the help of the Holy Alliance). I am of course, sure that thousands of lives lost is a small price to pay for some coffee. . You say that Saint Nicholas and Saint Paul were born in Turkey. This is wrong. They were born in Asia Minor, which would not be Turkey before the Turks enslaved/massacred the native Greek populations there.

The reasons I am against Turkish admition are:
It is not ethnically, culturally or geographically European. So it has a little piece of Europe in its territory. So what? Spain has Ceuta. Does that mean it should immediately be given membership of the African Union? And why not admit Israel? I mean, at least half its population is somewhat European. And whilst you're there let's take in Australia, America, Canada, New Zealand. The whole shebang.
Having the EU take in Turkey is like a man who has eaten too much already swallowing a rock. It is too big and too poor. When do you think Turkey will be admitted. 2012? 2015? You are already complaining that you have been waiting too long. Does anyone think that in 10 years Poland, Czeckoslavakia and all these other countries will be fully industrailised, modernised and economically prosperous? What does Turkey have to offer the EU anyway, apart from the sentimental notion "A Muslim country at the 'heart of Europe" and cheap labour, of which it has plenty already?
Finally, the borders which Turkey has with Iran, Iraq and Syria are simply too difficult to police effectively. All those mountains and streams do not make it easy to control. And then what? They can go anywhere in Europe with this idiotic Schengen agreement. A determined terrorist will not find it very hard to slip through and be able to go anywhere they want.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Because Turkey has .2 sq. miles of land (gross underexaggeration, but still) in Europe, it should get to join the EU? No! America has land in Europe. Ramstein Airbase, the graves at Normandy, embassies, etc. Why can't we join the EU? Most of us are European by decent, anyway.

It's preposterous to let Turkey join the EU, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Turks. I like Turks, we have Mouza and LEN, plus all the good food and hot women. But they're simply not a European Nation. Ethnically, they're not European, Culuturally they're not European and even their nation holds somthing like 98% of it's land in Asia minor.

Besides, as an Austrian, I can proudly say that Turkey is not European.

EDIT: King Henry, it was Aetolia back then, a majorly greco-persian area (the western coast and such was Greek, further in it became Persian).

Also, if you guys want to be part of a Union, form the Middle Eastern union or somthing, if you can find any other relativly nice, freedom loving governments (it is my understanding Turkey is one of the best governments in the Middle East to date, I might be wrong though).

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

Mr Apache, I never realized the possibilities.

I will write to my MP and suggest that he campaign for the immediate entry of China to the E.U. Excellent idea, he'll probably go for it as he's such a PC thug ("oh how glorious, a pacific rim nation at the heart of Europe, won't we be so jolly and multi-cultural then.").

[Duke Malcolm]

Might I ask who your MP is, and of which party?

[LeftEyeNine]

Where we live is a totally strange place : No direction offers anything..

That's why I continuously ask why we have to attend a union.

[BDC]

We need Turkey, Turkey would probably do better with us. So everyone wins. Except the racists, who lose.

Ignoring all the issues the EU has at the moment anyway.

[Sjakihata]

A few notes.

Basically, there are several arguments, put forth by Austria and others, however, upon on closer scrunity they are all invalid, a little list follows:

1) The huge population will be too much for EU, they (turks) will immigrate everywhere into europe (implicit: they will disrubt our normal order of the day).

2) They are moslems, follow the qoran - and are fundamentally different from us.

3) Their economy suck.

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.


These are great for one purpose. To scare. If you as a party put forth these "arguments" you'll scare people. Offer a solution and they'll vote for your party.

1 Now, number one has been disproven a number of time. When Greece, Spain, Poland etc, joined. The mass flux wasnt to be found. Locals remained to rebuild their country and make for themselves a better living.

2 Actually, the common turk is no more moslem, than the common european is christian. And all europeans know that christianity isnt really prominent. You *never* hear religious arguments, and if so, it's a minority party. They are secular, democratic and follow Allah. We are secular, democratic and follow God - Allah and God, as you know, is the same being.

3 True, it's not as developed central european countries, however, other nations have joined the EU with a LOWER BNP than what Turkey currently have, so it's not an argument. And when Turkey joins it will pull up both (turkey and EU) economies, although over a longer stretch of years.

4 Not true entirely. This argument probably holds the most weigth, however, when you look at how we (eu AND us) behave in Iraq - I don't really think we are in a position to point fingers. Of course the human rights have to be sublime, but Turkey isnt going to join tomorrow, but in 15 years. What's being discussed now is just whether to allow them to the negotiations, not joining.


Personally, im PRO Turkey full membership and ANTI eu. I dont want the EU, but now that we have it, let's have as many as possible.

[Komutan]

4) Humanism is failing, no human rights.

Actually this argument is pretty weak, because human rights in Turkey improve as Turkey moves closer to EU. So people who are concerned about the human rights in Turkey should support Turkey's membership.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

In Turkey, Human Rights violate you! Sorry, couldn't resist that horrible attempt at a joke from a crossover of the Soviet Russia thread . Continue.