BI feature: AI does not throw weapons!

[Duke John]

I read at TWC that the AI does not throw weapons (axes, darts, javelines). So I did 2 tests, one defending, one attacking with equal forces (3 types of WRE infantry) and in both cases the AI either attacked immediately or waited for me attack. But not a single javelin was thrown. Not good.

I'm sure BI was tested before it was released, but if this is indeed a bug and not a feature like the siege one then CA should really re-evaluate their testers.

[Bartix]

Have we here first BI feature of major "Gah!!" value??
If confirmed This is some thing that will need a patch.

[TB666]

Yeah notice that too.
Like CA remove "fire at will" for the AI.

[Duke John]

Not exactly, archers still shoot, and legionaires should throw pilums before they charge and that has nothing to do with fire at will.

[Uriel]

If may be too much to hope for, but could the AI be seeking a tactical advantage? For instance if confronted to the front with well armoured troops holding shields, the AI will not use missile weapons, as they will be relatively ineffectual. I've seen several people state that missiles are ineffective against well armoured troops in a frontal assault.

If the AI is presented with the unguarded rear or sides of these troops, or unarmoured opponents without shields do they let loose? They could just be holding their fire, saving their missiles for the opportune moment.

[Duke John]

I did new tests; 1 peasant defending against 1 AI comitatenses, which immediately charged. 1 peasant attacking AI resulted in the AI immediately marching and charging towards the peasants. To avoid this I added 2 backup peasents who did not nothing besides being spectactors. I marched up the lowly peasants just in front of the AI Comitatenses and took this spectacular screenshot that showed the AI at its best; doing nothing:

[Jambo]

maybe the AI doesn't deem peasants worthy enough of wasting a javelin on? Do skirmishing units/legions still throw their weapons in RTW 1.3, or is it just BI that this problem occurs in?

[Puzz3D]

maybe the AI doesn't deem peasants worthy enough of wasting a javelin on? Do skirmishing units/legions still throw their weapons in RTW 1.3, or is it just BI that this problem occurs in?

AI skirmishers are throwing their javelins at my troops, hastati mostly, in RTW v1.3. This is happening at the start of the battle when the battlelines get close to each other. The AI sends it's skirmishes out front, but not too far forward. If I send my velites forward, the AI with charge them with cavalry or melee infantry which seems correct.

[Kraxis]

Kurdish Javelinmen and other true skirmishers do throw their weapons, but units with FAW off do not throw them at all. Siege units do shoot though, despite starting with FAW off.

I noted this a long time ago when I was fighting some rebel Hastati in RTW. They never responded to my own Hastati throwing their pila.

Then I came here but there wasn't much response to it. I guess I should have posted a new thread for it.

[Geoffrey S]

I'm sure BI was tested before it was released, but if this is indeed a bug and not a feature like the siege one then CA should really re-evaluate their testers.

Yeah, these are the sort of things that should be noticed during intensive testing.

[Jambo]

Didn't the AI Hastati, Principes, etc, used to throw their pilum before charge in 1.2?

Am I right in thinking that this is what is claimed is no longer occurring in BI (and possibly 1.3)?

[Duke John]

In R:TW 1.2 I did see Hastati and Principes throwing their pilums. This is not happening with their WRE/ERE equivalents in BI.

[Doug-Thompson]

Well, this sure sounds like a frontrunner in the bug list. I'll try a siege or something and put a couple if pilum-equipped units in the center of town. If the pilums aren't thrown by the second unit, which can't reach the attackers immediately in a crowded street, we'll know for sure.

[Susanne]

I read at TWC that the AI does not throw weapons (axes, darts, javelines). So I did 2 tests, one defending, one attacking with equal forces (3 types of WRE infantry) and in both cases the AI either attacked immediately or waited for me attack. But not a single javelin was thrown. Not good.

I'm sure BI was tested before it was released, but if this is indeed a bug and not a feature like the siege one then CA should really re-evaluate their testers.

I have noticed this too. In a test battle featuring one unit of Eastern Roman Plumbatarii vs one unit of Western Roman Comitatenses (this is irrelevant, but I thought some of you might care). Charging the Comitatenses, the AI made no effort to bring up the javelins.

[Kraxis]

As I said it has long been so with the rebel Hastati in the original campaign. I have never seen them throw their pila.

It is disturbing though that it now applies to all similar units.

[TB666]

Can also confirm this.
Hopefully we will see a fix for this soon.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I also found out this in my first battle vs ERE as the goths. They didn't throw at my horse archer mercs despite the ha mercs passing very close by in one of my manouvres. Then it was repeated when they ran forward towards my line of spearmen. They just stood there for a while, then retreated.

[Afro Thunder]

I think it has to do with the fact that those units do not have Fire at Will turned on by default. If you approach an AI Comitatenses unit they won't throw Pila at you, but if they decide to attack, then they will throw a volley and charge. Again, it's simply because the AI doesn't know how to turn on the Fire at Will ability.

[Duke John]

Did you see AI Comitatenses firing a volley before charging? In my tests the AI simply shoots never; not when charging not when standing within shooting range.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Wow. This doesn't look good.

But then, perhaps its another 'feature' of the AI, like that other clever tactic involving raising a siege to confuse and frustrate players, so they quit the game and the AI wins!

Crazed Rabbit

[Red Harvest]

Ouch. This is one of those issues that gives the player an edge. Seems CA forgot to build in some sort of logic test for whether or not AI infantry should or should not throw their projectiles.

[Kraxis]

Ouch. This is one of those issues that gives the player an edge. Seems CA forgot to build in some sort of logic test for whether or not AI infantry should or should not throw their projectiles.

Yes very bad... Units such as Plumbatarii has a serious punch as ranged units.

[Mr Frost]

But then, perhaps its another 'feature' of the AI, like that other clever tactic involving raising a siege to confuse and frustrate players, so they quit the game and the AI wins!

Such cunning !

Has anyone tested this in the Demo ?
If it is different there , it could help C/A {whom I hope have more support for game patches than they used to from Activision} pin down whatever is causing the problem .

[Yukon Cornelius]

While you're all tinkering with problems relating to missile weapons, does someone with BI (which, by definition, rules me out) mind testing 1.3 to see if the Macedonian temple_of_hunting_pantheon correctly gives a +5 missile bonus now?

I remember testing weapon/armour upgrades once and not noticing any difference in battle between a +3 upgrade and a +6 upgrade. In all levels of the governor building I added a +6 weapon/armour bonus to one faction using "requires factions {blahblah}" and only +3 to everyone else. In battle I saw not distinct advantage to my units, which should have had a net +3 attack and +3 defense above the enemy. The Unit Recruitment tab of the city information screen showed the +6 bonus correctly. However, the unit info screen of actual units I had built showed only a +3 bonus *both on the campaign map and on the battle map*.

I very much consider it a bug since two buildings in vanilla RTW (temple_of_hunting_awesome_temple and temple_of_hunting_pantheon, buildable by Macedon) are supposed to give a weapon_missile bonus greater than +3, yet they only seem to give +3. Furthermore, with the pantheon and a foundry you should get a +7 bonus to missile weapons but you still only seem to get +3.

I'm just wondering if this is fixed now.

[Jambo]

The only way to get the pila/javelin users to throw their javelins before attacking is to remove the "prec" ability from the export_descr_unit file. The side effect of this is that the units will now skirmish until they're out of missiles before they attack. However, sometimes they appear to attack even though they still have thrown ammo left.

So far I haven't been able to find a more suitable solution to this by modding.