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  1. #1
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    In wich part...
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Robert Heinlein once wrote that for something to be "moral" it had to promote survival of the individual and/or species.

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  3. #3
    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Robert Heinlein once wrote that for something to be "moral" it had to promote survival of the individual and/or species.
    What I remember of Kant said that the moral is different from the law. He defined morals as the rules that reing over the individual, and the law those who rule over the relationships of the individual. He had also some obsolete ideas of society.
    In any case I disagree with Robert Heinlein. The human sees many things as being good or bad, without having any material substantial reference to look at. The fact that for so many time (and even now) some people banned sexual liberation, is enough proof to refute Mr. Heinlein statement, and of course the irony is that without sex we couldn't reproduce...
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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Soulforged
    What I remember of Kant said that the moral is different from the law. He defined morals as the rules that reing over the individual, and the law those who rule over the relationships of the individual. He had also some obsolete ideas of society.
    In any case I disagree with Robert Heinlein. The human sees many things as being good or bad, without having any material substantial reference to look at. The fact that for so many time (and even now) some people banned sexual liberation, is enough proof to refute Mr. Heinlein statement, and of course the irony is that without sex we couldn't reproduce...
    Heinlein would argue that such strictures may have, at one time, been necessary in order to produce a stable environment for child-rearing and societal improvements (survival on the larger level). He would also agree that it will have become immoral if survival no longer requires such restrictions on sexual liberation.

    And yes, this was the argument he advanced in Starship Troopers. A fun read, and only tangentially linked to the film of the same name.

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  5. #5
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    And yes, this was the argument he advanced in Starship Troopers. A fun read, and only tangentially linked to the film of the same name.
    Seamus
    The film was much deeper
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Mystic Bard Member Soulforged's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Heinlein would argue that such strictures may have, at one time, been necessary in order to produce a stable environment for child-rearing and societal improvements (survival on the larger level). He would also agree that it will have become immoral if survival no longer requires such restrictions on sexual liberation.
    However, even with your correction, this doesn't refute my statement. You're banning the same idea of sex, society in large is doing it, and this moral is the very counter part of all survival. As banning gay "marriage" (i would call it union, because marriage comes from "mater", wich means "mather") is the very counter point of evolution, and thus the suvival of society. For so many times the chirstian had taken it all wrong: the morals should (because it's axiological, because it comes from it's very essence) be the rules of the individual, the relationship of he with himself, thus the moral can have infinite connotations, even going beyond rationality (like ritual death, seppuku), it doesn't has to have any drop of survival idea. So my point is that what this Mr. is proposing is unbearable, because if you're arguing that it's well to just ban something for the sake of the rest of society, because of some ideal or eventual instability, then the state (or society in any case) will have so much power that in the name of safety, stability or whatever reason that they think appeals to survival (in it's ample sense as you took it), then they'll be able to involve in your personal affairs, saying what you can and you cannot do with yourself, or even with others, because we must understand that the meaning of privacy so respected in the Constitution (brought from the very inmemorial past to our Constitutions) also includes all relationships that doesn't directly damages others rights.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
    Sounds like something out of Starship Troopers.
    wait you dont base your morals and ethics off of Starship troopers
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #8
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Morality

    I don't know.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What is Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Robert Heinlein once wrote that for something to be "moral" it had to promote survival of the individual and/or species.

    Seamus
    Exactly. Everything else is an illusion anyway.

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