Horde Behaviour

[TinCow]

I have recently had an experience with the Vandal horde which has brought some questions to my mind. They came through Alemanni territory and beseiged and captured western Gaul (Bay of Biscay area) from me for their new homeland. After splitting and defeating their two remaining horde stacks over several seasons, I laid siege to the city and re-captured it, massacring the 15k population to boost my heavily depleated treasury. The Vandals instantly returned to horde status with 6.5 stacks and on the next turn moved south toward the WRE Rebel held Iberian peninsula.

My questions concern how hordes are generated and where they go. The horde appeared just north of my city the instant I captured it, before I could massacre the population. However, I was still able to enjoy the rapine of a 15k population. If the horde left before I entered the city, shouldn't I have found a nearly empty city? If they left only after the massacre, shouldn't they have had far less than 6.5 stacks? It seems wrong that I can massacre an entire city population and still have that population generate a horde.

Also, while the army that took the city is strong, it certainly cannot stand up to 6.5 stacks. The western of the two southern Gaulic cities is very near to this horde as well and lightly defended. However, the horde made no attempt to re-take the city they were generated from nor to attack my nearby settlement. Clearly they have AI requirements that make them move a certain distance before attacking. How far does this move have to be? What exactly prevents them from attacking me, e.g. time limit or distance? Are they 'banned' from attacking my entire faction for a while or only the local cities near where they were generated?

Feel free to use this thread to discuss horde behaviour beyond these questions as well. I don't expect firm answers to these things, but I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

[Doug-Thompson]

... However, the horde made no attempt to re-take the city they were generated from nor to attack my nearby settlement. Clearly they have AI requirements that make them move a certain distance before attacking.

Well, it will be interesting, all right. My second Hun campaign ended when I took the one and only city of a faction on the second move. The went into a horde and immediately beseiged their old town.

There's been a strong random element in horde behavior. If there's a pattern, it's well concealed. Be very valuable to know if there is one.

[Zatoichi]

Captain Fishpants said this and more in the thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=54966&page=2

"Hordes generally go for the richest and least defended nearby target - quite reasonable behaviour, if you think about it. However, the AI does know which regions are on its 'victory conditions' list and will aim towards those areas, given a chance."

Which sheds some light on the issue. Some of the 'inactive horde' posts I've seen could be the result of the 'donkey with 2 carrots' scenario, whereby they can't establish which target meets the above requirements when they have an equal choice.

Or it could be something else entirely!

[Kraxis]

Hordes like to go towards their victory areas, also tehy don't like to be in an area where they have been kicked out. In this case that meant they would head for Iberia (in an attempt top get to Carthage).

[TinCow]

Captain Fishpants said this and more in the thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=54966&page=2

"Hordes generally go for the richest and least defended nearby target - quite reasonable behaviour, if you think about it. However, the AI does know which regions are on its 'victory conditions' list and will aim towards those areas, given a chance."

Ah, so this theoretically creates an interesting tactic. If 'rich' is a major factor in target analysis for the horde AI, the human player should always massacre the last town to ensure that it is no longer considered 'rich' enough for the horde to besiege. They may well have ignored the town I took from them because of the decent sized (though defeatable) garrison combined with the fact that it had just been ravaged. I know that the northern-most Iberian city (WRE Rebels) has not been sacked so far in this game and is large and prosperous.

Doug, do you remember what your occupation/enslavement/etc. choice was for the city that the horde re-took from you?

[Doug-Thompson]

Doug, do you remember what your occupation/enslavement/etc. choice was for the city that the horde re-took from you?

Yes, the blue Roxalani (sp?) faction, which is just north of the Black Sea, in what would now be the Ukraine. It's directly south of the Hun starting province.

There was nowhere else for them to go, really except for some poor barbarian hovels in the wilderness.

[TinCow]

Yes, the blue Roxalani (sp?) faction, which is just north of the Black Sea, in what would now be the Ukraine. It's directly south of the Hun starting province.

There was nowhere else for them to go, really except for some poor barbarian hovels in the wilderness.

Did you occupy the city, enslave it, eradicate it or sack it? I'm trying to determine if sacking/eradication is a good method to prevent the spawned horde from simply taking the city right back.

[Orda Khan]

As Huns, I also took the Roxolanni town. I sacked it and massacred the inhabitants. As I was also driving the Sarmatians, Vandals and Goths before me, I kept track of the Roxolanni horde because it was a threat to my rear. It moved north westerly and did some damage to the Alemanni. I was also in Alemanni territory. Roxolanni moved on to threaten the Franks, meanwhile the Alemanni attacked me ( I was neutral to them ) and were wiped out by my Huns. The Roxolanni are currently laying seige to the Franks, the Goths resettled in northern Italy and are under seige from Sarmatians and the Vandals, who settled in Campus Iaziges ( plus still some Vandal hordes ) have tried to settle an old score with me......to no avail
I am really enjoying the unpredictability the hordes have brought to the game

......Orda

[Doug-Thompson]

Did you occupy the city, enslave it, eradicate it or sack it? I'm trying to determine if sacking/eradication is a good method to prevent the spawned horde from simply taking the city right back.

Occupied it. As I recall, there were at least three full stacks, too. I don't remember their composition, though. I was trying to conquer too many places at once. The Hun horde was spread out and I just started a new campaign. Sorry. I should have hung on and made observations.

[A.Saturnus]

Strangely, the people of a horde don´t come from the city that generated the horde. If you start with the Goth, you have one city with 11507 inhabitants. Your troops are 302 in the city and 196 in a stack nearby on large units. That makes 12005 people under your rule.
I did horde immediately and got several horde stacks that amount to 5586 men in total. But the city I just abandoned had still 11507 inhabitants! I retook the city and the number of inhabitants rose to 13061. The increase was taken from the horde stacks. I still had 4032 men in stacks. If you add that to the people in the city, you get 17093. Thus, by abandoning the city and immediately retaking it, my population increased by 5088 people. Where did they come from??

So, although a horde is supposed to be 'a people on the run', its members are not taken - unlike normal soldiers - from the population resource.

[Yukon Cornelius]

In which case you can probably horde, take the city, disband all units in the city to increase the population, lather, rinse, repeat. Instant population in just three easy steps.

[Prodigal]

This may not work everytime, & is a tad off topic, but as ERE, I had a horde hit Constan. v.early in the game & decided to jump ship rather than duke it out. Destroyed all buildings & jumped troops across a boat bridge to the east, the horde took the city but didn't garisson it. Moved one spy in & a few turns later it was fully populated with golden peasants...Same story with Athens, burnt earth policy, jump ship, a bit later its back and I have troops. This on m/m btw, tried vh/vh, then h/h but couldn't deal with the inferiroity complex of having 600 men routed by 20 horsemen.

As far as behaviour goes I think the previous posts about wealth/defense are right on the money, they hit my richest weakspots everytime, in vh/vh & h/h in 4 seperate games. And if one tended to act like a headless chicken, the others didn't.

[TinCow]

More info from my campaign.

The Vandal horde that moved south besieged the Northeast Iberian city (WRE Rebels). Around this time, the WRE Rebels experienced a huge loyalty problem and three of their armies, both cities in Britain, and a total of four family members defected to my side. The city that was under siege by the Vandals went normal gray rebel, with all units inside remaining the same. As soon as this occurred, the Vandals lifted their siege and moved north and attacked the city from which they were originally generated.

Obviously what has happened here is that the city 'flip' caused the AI to re-run its target analysis script and it concluded that my city was a better target. Clearly whatever kept them away from me when the horde was generated is no longer in effect. This is about six turns later.

[Doug-Thompson]

Found out why hordes just sit there for a long time, sometimes.

"Characters in province" have a big effect on religious conversion. The leaders of the five-stack Hun army infesting one of my Balkan provinces is driving it toward paganism.

Apparently, the horde doesn't want to take the province until it can peacefuly occupy it.

This is leading to a standoff. I don't want to attack the Huns and drive them out, mainly because I can't. So I'm moving an all-cavalry army with a bunch of my family members into the province while building religious buildings and garrison troops in the threatened town.

Meanwhile, I'm building up a lot more cavalry.

[Orda Khan]

I have been in a long dispute with the Vandals and have destroyed their armies leaving as few as 38 men. They have not held Campus Iazyges long enough, IMO, to build up any population numbers yet when I took the town they generated a 5000 strong horde. This does feel a little over the top

.......Orda