Shield wall and schiltron

[frogbeastegg]

Fast question from a frog who presently doesn't have time to even fire up BI, let alone investigate such things, thanks to work.

What exactly do these formations do, then?

Obviously there's the graphical element

Schiltron can't move, according to the manual. Shield wall moves slower, according to the manual, but personally I haven't noticed much, if any, difference between walking in formation and walking normally. Er, but I have not been paying attention really.

Shield wall allows a continuous line with no gaps at all, if multiple units using shield wall are grouped and given the 'single line' formation. This is great, and if CA haven't already seen me say so, I'll repeat in the hopes they notice this time: good job on this; I love it. Small alteration, maybe, but the difference it makes ...

Presumably they give a defence bonus against arrows from head on, but leave the formation very vulnerable from flanks and rear (shield wall here; schiltron is blob shaped, and so has none) . My guess is that the schiltron is a big fat death-trap against missiles, but what of the shield wall?

The manual talks of them being great defensive formations. I wonder why, precisely. Obviously the schiltron cannot be flanked. But do they give stat bonuses and penalties to the men fighting in them, like formations did in the old games?

When using shield wall, are units as good offensively, or is it strictly for defence? I mean, is it a good idea to advance on your enemy in shield wall and then fight in shield wall? Or is that Not A Good Plan At All? If shield wall gives a defensive boost against head-on missiles then advancing in it could be good when facing missiles, but then should the formation be kept for the melee, or should you revert just before contact?

For best defensive effects, is it good to advance and charge with a shield wall, or should it stand still and take charges without trying to move? I would guess at the latter.

From my experience, sadly limited to about 6 hours play as it is, shield wall plus guard mode = one heck of a stiff defence. Offensively, it’s hard to say. I haven’t been able to experiment much: I’ve only been using Saxon spear levies and keels, fighting battles either against rebel peasants or very nasty WRE units. I’ve never used schiltron, but the AI used it once against me. I shot it to death extremely quickly.



Probably more of a Ludus Magna type of thread, but maybe not. Move or not as you please.

[econ21]

Good question. I don't have my copy of BI yet, but if someone wants to do some research on this, I'll open a thread about it in the Ludus Magna. Maybe a CA rep will pass by here and give us the answer directly, although they seem to be reluctant to provide numerical information on game mechanics anymore.

[Kraxis]

My experience with schiltrom is rather punishing.

I have had unit s that I thought would beat the enemy get depleted and need help fighting the enemy in schiltrom. I think part of it is the unflankability, that the schiltrom retains its formation no matter what, but also a part that the schiltrom truns whenever it suffers a loss. Thus tired men seem to get out of the combat unlike in normal ofrmation where they only get reinforced by fresh soldiers.
And lastly, I have noticed that the soldiers in schiltrom acts very much like soldiers in phalanx. Stab stab stab stab stab... they just keep attacking, no positioning no blocking and so on.

To me it is very strong.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm pretty sure they can run while in shiltron.

In shieldwall, troops move slowly. I've had mixed experiances with the wall. Sometimes it is good - very good - as it pins the enemy for flanking. But you get very few kills while in shield wall, at least when facing tough opponents.

[Kraxis]

I'm pretty sure they can run while in shiltron.

In shieldwall, troops move slowly. I've had mixed experiances with the wall. Sometimes it is good - very good - as it pins the enemy for flanking. But you get very few kills while in shield wall, at least when facing tough opponents.

That's true. I just tested a battle between three Saxon Hearth and three Comitatenses, I was Saxon obviously. That battle lasted longer than any other similar battle in RTW. It just kept going and going and going.
Interestingly the better Comitatenses lost the battle eventhough they flanked (I didn't maneuver much as I tried to get head on fights). Those Hearth fought on in Steady morale the entire battle, even when one unit dropped to 16 men.
In a normal battle they would have lost.

Then I tried the shiltrom. The best schiltrom unit is the Gothic Spearmen (7, 20), so I tried them against another unit of Comitatenses. They lost obviously but in schiltrom they fought longer and much harder, killing 34, in normal formation they managed to kill a mere 17.

All in all I think it is safe to say there is a bonus to both formations, just like the manual says.

[Camp Freddie]

I did a little melee combat testing and found that the Shiltrom doesn't seem to get any bonuses to combat, apart from the obvious fact that it can't be flanked and the obvious penalty that it comes out of formation when you give a move order.
It's also a very hard formation to break apart, while in normal formation the unit can easily get scattered in a big melee.
i.e. It's very useful for isolated spear units that can't protect their flanks.
I don't know about missiles, but I expect it is more vulnerable, since many soldiers will be facing away from the arrows.

Shield wall puts your men in an ultra-tight formation, and if you do it with a group of units, there will be no gaps in the formation between the units. It's a very defensive formation, although you can attack in it (though you move much slower, a bit like a phalanx). It works well when you want to maintain a battle line and hold the enemy while another unit flanks them. It also seems to work well against cavalry, and effectively halts their charge on the rare occasions when they attack you head on.
There is one main weakness - it is vulnerable to flank attacks. And since the formation is very tight, it is also very small. This means that a head on fight of 2 identical units will favour the one that ISN'T in shield wall formation. This is because the standard formation will overlap around both flanks and surround the shield wall.
Lastly, a shield wall that is completely surrounded will often have AI problems working out what direction it's supposed to be pointing its shields! They will often turn their backs to the enemy and form up against the enemies that are attacking from the rear.
i.e. Shieldwalls are great as part of a huge inpenetrable battle line, but terrible as an isolated unit
I don't know if shieldwalls get more protection vs ranged attacks from the front.

Overall, I love the new formations, since they are useful in many common battlefield circumstances - compared to the practically useless testudo.

[nanoboy]

The schiltron is ridiculously vulnerable to missile fire. The AI seems to like to bunker up into it when it feels that the unit is in danger of flanking. Basically, any time that an AI spearman is isolated, it will schiltron up.

As I have been playing the Franks, I use my hunters to pelt them, and it's like they just gave up their shields. Also, I like to set my weapon throwing infantry to fire at will and march them up to the schiltron and let them do their worst. It falls after that. In general, I don't think that the formation is a threat if you manage to keep your forces organized.