Shield wall and schiltron

[frogbeastegg]

Fast question from a frog who presently doesn't have time to even fire up BI, let alone investigate such things, thanks to work.

What exactly do these formations do, then?

Obviously there's the graphical element

Schiltron can't move, according to the manual. Shield wall moves slower, according to the manual, but personally I haven't noticed much, if any, difference between walking in formation and walking normally. Er, but I have not been paying attention really.

Shield wall allows a continuous line with no gaps at all, if multiple units using shield wall are grouped and given the 'single line' formation. This is great, and if CA haven't already seen me say so, I'll repeat in the hopes they notice this time: good job on this; I love it. Small alteration, maybe, but the difference it makes ...

Presumably they give a defence bonus against arrows from head on, but leave the formation very vulnerable from flanks and rear (shield wall here; schiltron is blob shaped, and so has none) . My guess is that the schiltron is a big fat death-trap against missiles, but what of the shield wall?

The manual talks of them being great defensive formations. I wonder why, precisely. Obviously the schiltron cannot be flanked. But do they give stat bonuses and penalties to the men fighting in them, like formations did in the old games?

When using shield wall, are units as good offensively, or is it strictly for defence? I mean, is it a good idea to advance on your enemy in shield wall and then fight in shield wall? Or is that Not A Good Plan At All? If shield wall gives a defensive boost against head-on missiles then advancing in it could be good when facing missiles, but then should the formation be kept for the melee, or should you revert just before contact?

For best defensive effects, is it good to advance and charge with a shield wall, or should it stand still and take charges without trying to move? I would guess at the latter.

From my experience, sadly limited to about 6 hours play as it is, shield wall plus guard mode = one heck of a stiff defence. Offensively, it’s hard to say. I haven’t been able to experiment much: I’ve only been using Saxon spear levies and keels, fighting battles either against rebel peasants or very nasty WRE units. I’ve never used schiltron, but the AI used it once against me. I shot it to death extremely quickly.



Probably more of a Ludus Magna type of thread, but maybe not. Move or not as you please.

[econ21]

Good question. I don't have my copy of BI yet, but if someone wants to do some research on this, I'll open a thread about it in the Ludus Magna. Maybe a CA rep will pass by here and give us the answer directly, although they seem to be reluctant to provide numerical information on game mechanics anymore.

[Kraxis]

My experience with schiltrom is rather punishing.

I have had unit s that I thought would beat the enemy get depleted and need help fighting the enemy in schiltrom. I think part of it is the unflankability, that the schiltrom retains its formation no matter what, but also a part that the schiltrom truns whenever it suffers a loss. Thus tired men seem to get out of the combat unlike in normal ofrmation where they only get reinforced by fresh soldiers.
And lastly, I have noticed that the soldiers in schiltrom acts very much like soldiers in phalanx. Stab stab stab stab stab... they just keep attacking, no positioning no blocking and so on.

To me it is very strong.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I'm pretty sure they can run while in shiltron.

In shieldwall, troops move slowly. I've had mixed experiances with the wall. Sometimes it is good - very good - as it pins the enemy for flanking. But you get very few kills while in shield wall, at least when facing tough opponents.

[Kraxis]

I'm pretty sure they can run while in shiltron.

In shieldwall, troops move slowly. I've had mixed experiances with the wall. Sometimes it is good - very good - as it pins the enemy for flanking. But you get very few kills while in shield wall, at least when facing tough opponents.

That's true. I just tested a battle between three Saxon Hearth and three Comitatenses, I was Saxon obviously. That battle lasted longer than any other similar battle in RTW. It just kept going and going and going.
Interestingly the better Comitatenses lost the battle eventhough they flanked (I didn't maneuver much as I tried to get head on fights). Those Hearth fought on in Steady morale the entire battle, even when one unit dropped to 16 men.
In a normal battle they would have lost.

Then I tried the shiltrom. The best schiltrom unit is the Gothic Spearmen (7, 20), so I tried them against another unit of Comitatenses. They lost obviously but in schiltrom they fought longer and much harder, killing 34, in normal formation they managed to kill a mere 17.

All in all I think it is safe to say there is a bonus to both formations, just like the manual says.

[Camp Freddie]

I did a little melee combat testing and found that the Shiltrom doesn't seem to get any bonuses to combat, apart from the obvious fact that it can't be flanked and the obvious penalty that it comes out of formation when you give a move order.
It's also a very hard formation to break apart, while in normal formation the unit can easily get scattered in a big melee.
i.e. It's very useful for isolated spear units that can't protect their flanks.
I don't know about missiles, but I expect it is more vulnerable, since many soldiers will be facing away from the arrows.

Shield wall puts your men in an ultra-tight formation, and if you do it with a group of units, there will be no gaps in the formation between the units. It's a very defensive formation, although you can attack in it (though you move much slower, a bit like a phalanx). It works well when you want to maintain a battle line and hold the enemy while another unit flanks them. It also seems to work well against cavalry, and effectively halts their charge on the rare occasions when they attack you head on.
There is one main weakness - it is vulnerable to flank attacks. And since the formation is very tight, it is also very small. This means that a head on fight of 2 identical units will favour the one that ISN'T in shield wall formation. This is because the standard formation will overlap around both flanks and surround the shield wall.
Lastly, a shield wall that is completely surrounded will often have AI problems working out what direction it's supposed to be pointing its shields! They will often turn their backs to the enemy and form up against the enemies that are attacking from the rear.
i.e. Shieldwalls are great as part of a huge inpenetrable battle line, but terrible as an isolated unit
I don't know if shieldwalls get more protection vs ranged attacks from the front.

Overall, I love the new formations, since they are useful in many common battlefield circumstances - compared to the practically useless testudo.

[TinCow]

I use Auxilia shieldwalls to center my line in my best army (WRE). They are ridiculously hard for the enemy to break and I have not yet had one unit in that formation break. They don't seem to pack much of an offensive punch in that formation, but they are superb for pinning enemy units and holding a section. That said, my shield walls don't ever seem to hold their ground, even when ordered to do so. Engaged shield walls always do a slow forward creep, which usually pulls single units out of the multi-unit line and exposes their flanks. This is very annoying and should not be happening.

[Bob the Insane]

You want to try attacking a Shiltrom with cavalry... Not pleasant, for the cavalry... I had that experience last night, attacked a small rebel army with a single general (as the Saxons). Two units of peasants (including the general) and a unit of rebel spearmen. As my cavalry got close the spearmen formed a Shiltrom, basically abandoning the peasants to their fate. A deft bit of manouvering to sperate the peasants and I had overrun, routed and slaughtered the two units. I guess I should have withdrawn but the red mist came down want I repeatedly charged the Shiltrom until, to late, I realised we were doomed and I lost a (badly needed) young family member. Considering just how uber heavy cavalry is in BI the Shiltrom really did not take many casualties.

One thing I have noticed about the shieldwall is that even when stretched pretty thin it can hold back just about any charge. Another (and much larger) battle against the Celts (still as the Saxons) saw me with 4 units of Keels and 4 units of Hearth Warriors all formed up into one long shield wall just 3 men deep. Archers positioned to their rear and a backup line of axemen behind them (Gallowglass mercenarys defending each flank). The line was repeatedly attacked by cavalry and in the end suffered a massive charge along it's full length and while it began to bow back in places where the enemy generals attacked (there was 6 of them!!) it didn't break. A timely charge by the axemen into the line reversed the charge and routed the enemy.

As a side note the enemy charge was impressive, hitting the entire length of my line at the same time!!

[lars573]

Playing as the Saxons I had a rebel army spawn in Tribus Saxones. I was at the time building an army to go molest Britannia so I had a general and 2 hunter and hearth troop units ready to go. Since I wanted to test the Shield wall in actual combat I attacked. But once in battle the spear warband rebels schiltromed on me. I decided that taking on a schiltrom with my hearth troops could be a bad idea so while considering what to do I noticed that in schiltrom full half of the unit faces away from you. This gave me an idea to see if the schiltrom had a weakness to arrow fire. So I sent my hunters after the spear units. And the schiltrom did have a weakness to arrow fire. Every volley as many as 10 spearmen not facing my hunters got shot up. Eventually the spear unit was just 2 guys back to back then they got filled with arrows and the spear warband was gone.

[Craterus]

The schiltron is almost unaffected by cavalry, but is very weak against arrows.

[hoof]

TinCow, try setting your units on "guard". In Vanilla RTW, the Phalanxes had guard mode on by default. They were much more effective offensively with it off, but they'd move around and disrupt any line you had. I think CA put guard on Phalanxes to prevent the outcry of spearwalls breaking apart upon contact with enemies for those who didn't know about the guard setting. I suspect that shieldwall units in formation would attempt to maintain that formation with "guard" on. With "guard" off, it's a bit like issuing a "Engage at will" order vs "Hold the line".

[TinCow]

That's what I meant when I said they were ordered to hold their ground. I have had them on Guard (the shield icon, right?) when this occurs.

[Bob the Insane]

Engaged shield walls always do a slow forward creep, which usually pulls single units out of the multi-unit line and exposes their flanks. This is very annoying and should not be happening.

Yeah I have noticed this as well. It is not the full on charge the enemy or flee after routers type thing. It is more like the sidewise creep of the Phalanx in RTW. While fighting the unit slowly creeps forward whether set to hold or not.

Actually if you look close the individual soldiers always appear to sort of be in motion. As if they have been all squished up and are have to make an effort to stay that way...

[nanoboy]

The schiltron is ridiculously vulnerable to missile fire. The AI seems to like to bunker up into it when it feels that the unit is in danger of flanking. Basically, any time that an AI spearman is isolated, it will schiltron up.

As I have been playing the Franks, I use my hunters to pelt them, and it's like they just gave up their shields. Also, I like to set my weapon throwing infantry to fire at will and march them up to the schiltron and let them do their worst. It falls after that. In general, I don't think that the formation is a threat if you manage to keep your forces organized.

[A.Saturnus]

I also did a little testing with instructive results.
Custom game Saxons against west Rome. I controlled Saxon keel while the AI had foederati cav. Now, that was problematic because naturally the AI didn´t charge the cav into spears. It tried to get around me and attack when the formation is disrupted. I had to turn the spears constantly, so this might not be very representative. Even though, I lost fewer men with spear wall than without.
After that I tried to use the cav myself. Now the problem was that I had no control whether the AI puts its spearmen into spear wall. At first I used samartian auxilia against Saxon keel. Strangely, the AI tried to charge me with the spears (not in spear wall formation). I charged also and instantly routed the spears, with loss of 3 men. So I picked another spear unit with lower charge bonus, maybe the AI would less inclined to charge. Auxilia palatina have a charge bonus of only 2 but are also tougher. I charged them with Hun heavy cav. The AI used spear wall and defeated the huns after some fighting without too heavy losses. After that I tried again Saxon keel, against hun heavy now. This time the AI didn´t charge but formed a spear wall. The charge of the huns had hardly any effect and after prolonged fighting with heavy losses on both sides, the huns ran. It seems to me that spear wall does indeed have a strong effect. At least against cav.
Another interesting finding was when I let hun heavies charge a unit of saxon hearth troops. They are about as tough as Auxilia Palatina but don´t have spears. Even though, put in spear wall, they could hold of the huns for a considerable time before they eventually lost. So spear wall seems to be good for any unit to withstand a charge not just spears.

[antisocialmunky]

Shiltroms are designed to allow foot soldiers to hold out indefinately against cavalry. The classic example of shiltrom employment is by the Scots against the English cavalry.

[Kraxis]

It is interesting that so many are not taking the manual's word as any sort of indication of the units.

It says that the shield wall gets a serious bonus to defense. Obviously we are seeing it in action when we see the walled units win where they shouldn't. It also says that the shield wall is vulnerable to flanking, something we have also proven.

I too have noticed thatte shield wall is perhaps too dense for the men and they are constantly trying to keep their position but are slowly being pushed out. At least it doesn't add fatigue.

I have noticed one serious weakness of the Schiltrom. If an enemy soldier manages to push his way into the center of the formation he is safe. He will continue to kill enemies who will all face outwards (giving him free hits in their backs). I had a single legionary do that, in teh end he had killed perhaps 10 enemies that way, while the fight itself was quite balanced.