The Israeli Occupation in a Microcosm

[Ser Clegane]

Oops ... sorry.

I guess I tend to be more thin-skinned when I post from work

Perhaps everybody could just ignore my previous nit-picking post

[Beirut]

No-no. I think you were spot on.

I'm just having a little fun at someone else's grammatical expense.

[Tribesman]

For once Id like you to post the relevant passages instead of you incesant go look BS.
Hey Gawain I would have thought that with your intense interest in the Israel palestine situation you would have the IDF and Knesset websites on your list of favourite links .
Then again I suppose you find it easier to get views that match your assumptions from the usual right wing blogs that you frequent .


http://www1.idf.il/dover/site/mainpa...docid=37572.EN
http://www.knesset.gov.il/main/eng/home.asp
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...8/6/Government

Try saving them , they are easily navigable and contain a wealth of information , of course they are Israeli sources so may be slightly biased , but I am sure you don't mind that , if you want some balance I can give you the Palestinian Authority ones as well .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Your site shows that by far the majority of Israeli Casualties are civilians. Remember my point isnt that they only target civilians but that they do target them. Not only that they are the main targets. This is why the Palestinians are the worse of the two. There is absolutley no excuse for this type of terrorism.

[Geoffrey S]

Your site shows that by far the majority of Israeli Casualties are civilians. Remember my point isnt that they only target civilians but that they do target them. Not only that they are the main targets. This is why the Palestinians are the worse of the two. There is absolutley no excuse for this type of terrorism.

Lumping all Palestinians among terrorists again, are we? Beirut made a pretty clear point about this, that there is a tendency either intentionally or through a bad choice of words to consider all Palestinians as terrorists or responsible for the terrorists.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Most of human kind shrinks away from the horrors of war -- thankfully.

Are attempts to label some folks civilian and others legitimate military targets artificial? Almost certainly. Yet the effort is an attempt to minimize the horrors of war -- and it is a noble effort.

Historically, war is not conducted that way. The model that dominates history is that practiced by most of you in RTW. Defeat your opponent, preferably in a way that allows for total destruction of their military. Then capture their civilian population, rape the women for your pleasure and to breed more soldiers for you, kill all the elderly and any man/woman who represents a conceivable threat, sell the rest into slavery to grow your own power.

This is inherently repulsive on a moral level, but on the level of practical logic devoid of morality it makes perfect sense. Do not merely defeat an enemy, but extirpate them root and branch so that they may never again be a threat nor exact revenge. Terrorism simply seeks to use the more "civilized" approach to war against itself for those who are squeamish about such things -- since the terrorists themselves harken to the older "law" that the only good enemy is a dead one and that there are no "civilians."

Seamus

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Lumping all Palestinians among terrorists again, are we?

Are you?

[Geoffrey S]

Are you?

Not to my knowledge. I thought "are we?" at the end of a sentence was a common phrase in English, also to be used when only a single person is meant and the writer is not actually including himself among a group; if I'm mistaken please let me know and I'll try not to make that mistake again.

[Tribesman]

Your site shows that by far the majority of Israeli Casualties are civilians. Remember my point isnt that they only target civilians but that they do target them. Not only that they are the main targets.
Its not my site , it is the Israeli Defence Forces site .
And no it was Rabbit that said they only target civilians not yourself .

It shows that on the Northern front they don't seem to be targeting civilians at all and correspondingly the majority of the casualties are military , in some years exclusively military .
So that shows a problem with blanket statements doesn't it .

Out of interest would you like to hazard a guess at the proportion of Palestinians killed and wounded who were not terrorists , or the proportion who are women and children .
Oh and before you say that the Israelis don't deliberately target civilians perhaps you might want to check first
Some very interesting developments recently , though of course those claims must be biased , as they originate from the IDF , the Israeli courts and the Knesset

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Out of interest would you like to hazard a guess at the proportion of Palestinians killed and wounded who were not terrorists

You would have a hard time proving whether they were or were not terrorists.

Oh and before you say that the Israelis don't deliberately target civilians perhaps you might want to check first

You may find some isolated case somewhere but its certainly not the day to day agenda of Israel as it is for Hammas for example. Maybe you would like to be more specific.

So that shows a problem with blanket statements doesn't it .

Well thats not saying much is it. We all know blanket statements are just that.

[English assassin]

I think all blanket statements are wrong, myself.

[Goofball]

Lumping all Palestinians among terrorists again, are we? Beirut made a pretty clear point about this, that there is a tendency either intentionally or through a bad choice of words to consider all Palestinians as terrorists or responsible for the terrorists.

While I realize that all Palestinians are not terrorists, one can make a reasonable case that the majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

I point to the recent elections in which Hamas candidates were elected by the Palestinian people to 77 out of 118 seats.

And in case we need a little reminding of what Hamas is all about, here is a little snippet from their charter:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."


Nice...

Now, I know all of the terrorist apologists will start talking about how Hamas runs schools and hospitals and gives to the poor.

Blah, blah, blah...

They also recruit, train, equip, and aim suicide bombers.

That kind of detracts from their philanthropic image.

[Dâriûsh]

I point to the recent elections in which Hamas candidates were elected by the Palestinian people to 77 out of 118 seats.

In isolated Gaza, not in the West Bank where the majority of the Palestinians reside.

[Tribesman]

I point to the recent elections in which Hamas candidates were elected by the Palestinian people to 77 out of 118 seats.

Maybe you should point to it Goof , as as far as I recall the Hamas share of the vote dropped from 30% to 26% and they were elected to 28 seats out of 104 .

[Goofball]

In isolated Gaza, not in the West Bank where the majority of the Palestinians reside.

My mistake.

I just reread the article I was using for a source and you are correct. I was guilty of reading a little too fast and perhaps seeing what I wanted to see.

I stand corrected.

[Dâriûsh]

My mistake.

I just reread the article I was using for a source and you are correct. I was guilty of reading a little too fast and perhaps seeing what I wanted to see.

I stand corrected.

That doesn’t change the fact that the Hamas is increasingly popular. Which is indeed worrying.

[Kraxis]

That doesn’t change the fact that the Hamas is increasingly popular. Which is indeed worrying.

I think that we can all agree to that.

And Goof I doubt that anyone actually apologizes for Hamas. Most people I hear talk about them, and have no personal connection with them (not being Palestinian for instance), say that as a reason for why people support them.
Imagine you are being opressed, then someone comes by and tell you that they have schools and hospitals. You of course become happy since three of your children are sick and have been that way for years. Then later the same man tells you that he and his organisation fight against the percieved opressor. At that point most people do not think how that fight is done.

It is not surprising that Hamas is most popular where the toughest situation for the Palestinians have been, Gaza. Densely populated, very small and with a visible Israeli presence and obvious destruction.

I dislike Hamas just as much as the next guy, but that does not mean I can't see where it comes from. And no, I don't know what will end the conflict as you can be sure that Hamas won't stop. Hopefully the withdrawal from Gaza will cause a fall in the support for Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere... But I don't think so.

[Geoffrey S]

I dislike Hamas just as much as the next guy, but that does not mean I can't see where it comes from. And no, I don't know what will end the conflict as you can be sure that Hamas won't stop. Hopefully the withdrawal from Gaza will cause a fall in the support for Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere... But I don't think so.

I agree. Hamas feeds off the feelings of the unhappy Palestinian masses. No way they'll let a Palestinian state have the chance to develop, which is a situation where they'll lose support; Hamas and other terrorist groups thrive on the chaos caused by conflict with Israel, any time when another group is at the helm of the Palestinian people and things get better is bad for them. The withdrawl from Gaza is certainly not going to stop Hamas from causing unrest.

[Tribesman]

Hopefully the withdrawal from Gaza will cause a fall in the support for Hamas in Gaza and elsewhere... But I don't think so.

Well their share of the vote declined by over 10% so maybe there is a little hope .
Then again the next generation of voters may be more radicalised than the current one .
It may well work out that the clever ******** hearts and minds policy of healthcare and education provision will pay off in increasing their support .

I suppose there is always the slim chance that they may moderate their stance in the way that many of the other Palestinian parties/groups have , but that at the moment seems a very slim chance .

[Beirut]

While I realize that all Palestinians are not terrorists, one can make a reasonable case that the majority of Palestinians support terrorism.

Ahh, but that would require a reasonable definition of terrorism. And I'm sure yours and theirs are not the same. While all may agree that a bomb on a school bus is terrorism, what about a bomb at an army checkpoint? You may think that is terrorism, I can assure you they do not.

And to say that the majority of Palestinians support the "bomb on a schoolbus" form of terrorism (not that you said that) is the same as saying all Jewish people are lawyers and bankers out to screw gentiles.

[Goofball]

Ahh, but that would require a reasonable definition of terrorism. And I'm sure yours and theirs are not the same. While all may agree that a bomb on a school bus is terrorism, what about a bomb at an army checkpoint? You may think that is terrorism, I can assure you they do not.

And neither do I. Soldiers are fair game. But don't whine when gunships put a couple of Hellfires through the front window of the terrorists' houses in reprisal. And if the terrorists' wives and children happen to be home at the time, tough shite. They know the risks involved with living with/harboring a terrorist.

[Proletariat]

And to say that the majority of Palestinians support the "bomb on a schoolbus" form of terrorism (not that you said that) is the same as saying all Jewish people are lawyers and bankers out to screw gentiles.

Then why don't they do anything about it? You know, since the majority of Palestinians are so against this type of thing.

[Leet Eriksson]

Hell prol, if i armed my kid with C4 and told everyone and their mother about it, the isrealis would be knocking at my door.

The terrorists are not that stupid. They don't go and announce it at the neighbourhood. Alot of palestinians themselves work for the isreali army to point out terrorists, i dare say 90% of the population inform isreali soldiers of suicide bombers daily in palestine.

[Beirut]

And neither do I. Soldiers are fair game. But don't whine when gunships put a couple of Hellfires through the front window of the terrorists' houses in reprisal. And if the terrorists' wives and children happen to be home at the time, tough shite. They know the risks involved with living with/harboring a terrorist.

I have to admit to being very... curious, about your statement of children knowing the risks of living with terrorists.

"Dad, I realize I'm only five, but I think we need to talk about your lifestyle."

Or is the five year-old harboring him?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And then we have this for the little girls

[Tribesman]

But don't whine when gunships put a couple of Hellfires through the front window of the terrorists' houses in reprisal. And if the terrorists' wives and children happen to be home at the time, tough shite. They know the risks involved with living with/harboring a terrorist.

So say , just for example , instead of a hellfire through a front window of a terrorists house you drop a 1000lb bomb on an apartment block to target one terrorist is that OK ?
Of course the 17 other people killed 12 of whom were children all knew there was a terrorist living in one of the flats , as did the 176 people who were wounded .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So say , just for example , instead of a hellfire through a front window of a terrorists house you drop a 1000lb bomb on an apartment block to target one terrorist is that OK ?
Of course the 17 other people killed 12 of whom were children all knew there was a terrorist living in one of the flats , as did the 176 people who were wounded .

So did we terrorize the French in WW2 by bombing their cities ? Heck we werent even at war with them. Or did we ever decalre war on Fichy France. Now what we did to the Germans and Japanese makes the Israelis look like peace nicks.

[Tribesman]

So did we terrorize the French in WW2 by bombing their cities ? Heck we werent even at war with them. Or did we ever decalre war on Fichy France. Now what we did to the Germans and Japanese makes the Israelis look like peace nicks.
So you are saying that terror bombing is OK Gawain ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So you are saying that terror bombing is OK Gawain ?

What is terror bombing? I would call the bombing of Dresden terror bombing and one of the most horrific war crimes ever perpetrated. Good thing we won the war. However if you attack a military target and civilians die that the price of war. Many of those in Palestine know who the terrorists are. They also know they are targeted by the IDF. If their smart they will stay away from or turn these people in not hang out with them. The only ones who can stop the terror are the Palestinian people. Once more I ask you , if the shoe were on the other foot do you think Israel would still exist today? That should answer the question what side is the more moral.

[Tribesman]

If their smart they will stay away from or turn these people in not hang out with them.

Ever lived in an apartment block Gawain ? How many of your neighbours would you have known ?
Oh but of course everyone knows everyones business don't they
However if you attack a military target and civilians die that the price of war.
Oh so you agree with bombing buses , and people at bus stops now ?

The only ones who can stop the terror are the Palestinian people.
Absolute rubbish