broken pikes

[infierno]

yesterday i was watching ALEXANDER the great the movie and i wondered myselft:

why the persians rushed to impale themselves into the macedonian pikes?
i mean, why not walk to the pikes (covering the arrow rain or spears etc) and then, cut off the points of the pikes so they could attack...

[Jebus]

They never thought of that. The main anti-phalanx tactic in Classical times was to try and clog the phalanx with dead bodies.

[Sarcasm]

Try and chop off a constantly moving pike head with a short-sword and you'll fail 99% of the times. It's also extremely hard to cut something that is not supported against something...the pike would just move away from the impact...

Even in the armies of the renaissance, with Bidenhänder-armed soldiers, had difficulty performing this type of attack. Spanish armies, though, had a type of sword and buckler troop armoured with a cuirass that would roll under the pikes and engage the pikemen within their own packed formation...as Ranika would tell you, Gallic and Galatian armies had a similar troop-type as well.

When speaking of regular tactics against a phalanx army, they should be faced with flexible and mobile troops...either with javelin and sling skirmishers, horse-archers or massed foot archery. Any kind of flanking was a valid tactic too.

[jerby]

like they said:
-when hitting it, 90% of it's energy will be guided away due to vibrations (the holding point is 3m away!)
-when hitting it, teh roudn surface might glance it off
-it's moving, hard to aim
- the pikes were so thick that not every man can make their fingers touch their thumbs

but pikes did splinter, but mainly on impact of armor I thought..

oh, and jebus very subtle...

[infierno]

" Classical times was to try and clog the phalanx with dead bodies."

wow, very hard what you said man, maybe the first soldiers of the line who must face the phalanx were drugged or something to face a sure death dont you think??

the question came to my head when i was watching the "CONQUEST" tv series, the barbarians weapons episode, the protagonist took a spear which used to counter a roman legionary, who used his gladius to cut off the point of the spear in the air. of course the protagonist said: if you dont move, the legionary will cut off your spear, so move all the time. and this cant be made so easy if you have a long pike

didnt know the real pikes were so thick, but, if it was thick and long, it should be heavy as hell, and if a sword could not cut off its point, the vibrations would hurt the carrier hands or make it drop to the floor...



rants and raves:
or, i dont know, there could be more ways to counter a phalanx, like, with ropes, catch the pikes as they were cows if the back of the metal point was not sharp
or even throwing a tree trunk over the first lines of pikes in horizontal position

http://www.clas.canterbury.ac.nz/graphics/sarissa_5.jpg

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I'd say they should take advantage of the sluggishness of the phalanx and stop in front and pelt them with javelins. When they are forced to charge, the cavalry can come in and break the lines of the phalanx even more. When they are broken like that, they may have more equal terms.

Maybe stupid for Darius's army at Gaugamela considering it was made up of farmers who had trouble using a sword let alone throwin a javelin. In other cases though this tactic could have worked wonders.

[jerby]

" Classical times was to try and clog the phalanx with dead bodies."

wow, very hard what you said man, maybe the first soldiers of the line who must face the phalanx were drugged or something to face a sure death dont you think??

didnt know the real pikes were so thick, but, if it was thick and long, it should be heavy as hell, and if a sword could not cut off its point, the vibrations would hurt the carrier hands or make it drop to the floor...

rants and raves:
or, i dont know, there could be more ways to counter a phalanx, like, with ropes, catch the pikes as they were cows if the back of the metal point was not sharp
or even throwing a tree trunk over the first lines of pikes in horizontal position

http://www.clas.canterbury.ac.nz/graphics/sarissa_5.jpg

war is not liek Tekken, or so..people are trying to kill you,a nd you them. you just didn't have the time to go wilde-western and lasso up those pikes... besides, were did you get teh room to sling it?
you yhink the sarissa can't be so thick for it would be too heavy, but you advise troops to carry tree-trunks with them to clog up teh phalanx? :S

altough Jebus wasn't subtle, not even in the lightest sense, he ís right...
with Gaugamela is the example, teh fornt row couldn't "refuse to fight" they were pushed into battle by the other 80.000 men behind them trying to get to teh fight...

I hate to say it, but your picture of ancient-warfare isn't very realistic...

[the_handsome_viking]

Try and chop off a constantly moving pike head with a short-sword and you'll fail 99% of the times. It's also extremely hard to cut something that is not supported against something...the pike would just move away from the impact...

Even in the armies of the renaissance, with Bidenhänder-armed soldiers, had difficulty performing this type of attack. Spanish armies, though, had a type of sword and buckler troop armoured with a cuirass that would roll under the pikes and engage the pikemen within their own packed formation...as Ranika would tell you, Gallic and Galatian armies had a similar troop-type as well.

When speaking of regular tactics against a phalanx army, they should be faced with flexible and mobile troops...either with javelin and sling skirmishers, horse-archers or massed foot archery. Any kind of flanking was a valid tactic too.

its quite amazing what degrees of courage such a thing would take , i mean what happens if you messed up and they just stabbed you repeatedly on the ground? scary stuff, but imagine succeeding at it and wrecking the enemies formation, you would have felt like a complete badass.

[jerby]

i think i'd rather say:"after you"..and wait for teh formation to crack

i think walking up to those pikes alone is brave..let alone knock them up 'n roll under.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

why the persians rushed to impale themselves into the macedonian pikes?

Because Oliver Stone knows more about films then about military history?

Take american films (even more serious ones) for what they are: entertainement. Not historical recreation.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Because Oliver Stone knows more about films then about military history?

Take american films (even more serious ones) for what they are: entertainement. Not historical recreation.

Liar liar liar!!! I'm not listening!!!! Lah-lah-lah-lah-lah!!!

(goes back to watch Troy again and again)

[khelvan]

(goes back to watch Troy again and again)

So THAT is where the majority of our Hellenic info comes from. No wonder!

[vizigothe]

really i thought the cinema was for entertainment?

cant believe i was wrong

[CBR]

Yes it could be used against halberds too but it still disappeared in use around mid 16th century and for the Swiss even earlier. My point is that even such weapons that could indeed cut of pike heads was not good enough to stay.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html


CBR

[Sarcasm]

Agreed.