Colombus Day

**Redleg** · 10-07-2005, 02:10

Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.

Oh boy someone likes to stir the pot now don't they.

**discovery1** · 10-07-2005, 02:15

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html

In England, Cabot received the backing he had been refused in Spain and Portugal. First, the merchants of Bristol agreed to support his scheme. They had sponsored probes into the north Atlantic from the early 1480s, looking for possible trading opportunities. Some historians think that Bristol mariners might even have reached Newfoundland and Labrador even before Cabot arrived on the scene.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 10-07-2005, 02:27

Originally Posted by discovery1

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html

Cabot was born in Genoa. Another great Italian.

**Uesugi Kenshin** · 10-07-2005, 02:34

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 10-07-2005, 02:37

Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.

The Turks started the slave trade way before Columbus. Just by finding America, it would have been extended and the natives enslaved.

**AntiochusIII** · 10-07-2005, 02:41

That's no excuse, Kaiser. Columbus was an important historical figure, whose successful voyage opened the New World to the grasp of the aspiring Spanish empire. If that is a good thing or not it is up to personal opinion. He did commit atrocities, you can't deny that. I do not slander him or consider him an evil creature some extremists do, but he is, shall we say, overrated.

After all, many of the deeds attributed to him belongs to others. Even the "discovery of America" by Columbus, the old misconception, is false, yet still a "common knowledge" in the unlearned folks.

**Tachikaze** · 10-07-2005, 02:37

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 10-07-2005, 02:44

Originally Posted by Tachikaze

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.

Well, without slavery, they'd still be in the dark ages in Africa, dying at age 30 of a cold. No offense to them, but it's still going on in some parts of Africa. So I doubt much would have changed. Despite all the bad things, in the end, slavery contributed Postitivly, mainly by (by ending it, at least) we gained many African-American writers, poets, and musicians into American society that wouldnt have been here if it wasnt for slavery in the 16 and 1700s

**AntiochusIII** · 10-07-2005, 02:48

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 10-07-2005, 02:50

Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.

The only real Kingdom I could think of that showed promise was Zimbabwe, in Africa. I'm probably wrong.

Either way, Columbus was a hero!

**Uesugi Kenshin** · 10-07-2005, 03:03

I don't think Columbus was evil per se, but he certainly wasn't a great guy and definately did a lot of horrible things.

How do we know that without Columbus we would not be better off? Capo you are making a lot of assumptions, such as that we wouldn't have a lot of African American writers and such, but how do we know that there wouldn't be a wave of more peaceful immigration, or another source for cultural diversity without Columbus? I think that is looking a bit too far ahead of the events, I think we should judge him based on what he did and the immediate consequences.

**Kaiser of Arabia** · 10-07-2005, 03:06

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Columbus was an ass.

So was MLK, in my opinion. You're point?

The thing is, ITALIAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE TOO MANY HEROS! So we tend to be very defensive. So that's why I'm definding Columbus wholeheartedly.

**Goofball** · 10-07-2005, 20:53

Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia

Well, without slavery, they'd still be in the dark ages in Africa, dying at age 30 of a cold.

With all due respect Kaiser, I suggest you take some courses in how not to say the most offensive, stupid, thoughtless possible things nearly every time you open your mouth.

Perhaps they offer them at you local community college.

Give them a call, please...

**Kanamori** · 10-07-2005, 21:28

Because socio-economic conditions are a load of bull. The poor (like myself) can get though college on Student Loans. Entering into college should be on merit. Period.

Equal means equal.

The notion that someone's environment has no effect on them is ludicrous. I have never said that those who are impoverished, economically and socially, have no chance at moving up the ladder, only that it is much less likely that an impoverished person will move up than it is for someone who has been put in a better situation but has the same basic personal abilities. I am not taking away your freewill; those who have had lesser primary educations have a better chance of moving up if they want to than they would w/o such a system. I do not advocate giving them free money, and I do not see why we as a society should not make upward mobility more of a reality.