Colombus Day

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Cristiforo Columbo is an Italian Hero, and I am sick and tired of all the slander spread against him by the radical left.

He's more of a hero than Martin Luther King and whoever the hell else these AA rascists want days after, because without him, I doubt MLK would have even BEEN IN AMERICA.

Treated Natives badly...blegh...and which nations didn't? You think the natives were nice to Columbus and his crew? Were they ever?

He may have made mistakes, but to call him a villain is just plain slander. What about all the bad things MLK and Malcom X did? And what's up with all these bloody herataige months while the Italians can't even get ONE $&#^$%#$^%&#^%$^#$^%$(*@(@*&@&*&&$#^@&*#& DAY?

I can go on, but that's enough for a start.

[Redleg]

Well what do you think of it?

I recently wrote a piece on Colombus Day for my school paper, it will be in Wednesday or Thursday's edition, I really don't see why the US celebrates him. It seems like he did a whole lot more harm than good. For one he treated the natives very brutally, even against the orders of the Spanish crown, he was a glory hound and even stole the glory of first seeing land from one of his own men, he was fairly inept when it came to predicting the Ocean's size and that of the Earth, and I'm sure there are many other things, but I think that's enough to start.

Oh boy someone likes to stir the pot now don't they.

[discovery1]

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html

In England, Cabot received the backing he had been refused in Spain and Portugal. First, the merchants of Bristol agreed to support his scheme. They had sponsored probes into the north Atlantic from the early 1480s, looking for possible trading opportunities. Some historians think that Bristol mariners might even have reached Newfoundland and Labrador even before Cabot arrived on the scene.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Kaiser, I'm pretty sure that even if Columbus wasn't given money for his voyage, some other explorer would con a monarch into supporting them. Wasn't there some English explorer at about the same time? http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/cabot.html

Cabot was born in Genoa. Another great Italian.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.

[Tachikaze]

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Just something for you to note Kaiser: he enslaved 1600 natives in direct violation of orders from the Spanish monarchs, and then sent them 550. They sent them back and punished him for it. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't start that trend? Though I agree it is likely that they would have been abused anyway it does not make that sort of behaviour permissible IMHO.

The Turks started the slave trade way before Columbus. Just by finding America, it would have been extended and the natives enslaved.

[AntiochusIII]

That's no excuse, Kaiser. Columbus was an important historical figure, whose successful voyage opened the New World to the grasp of the aspiring Spanish empire. If that is a good thing or not it is up to personal opinion. He did commit atrocities, you can't deny that. I do not slander him or consider him an evil creature some extremists do, but he is, shall we say, overrated.

After all, many of the deeds attributed to him belongs to others. Even the "discovery of America" by Columbus, the old misconception, is false, yet still a "common knowledge" in the unlearned folks.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

He was a profiteer looking for wealth. His voyage was uncertain and dangerous, but so were so many others that we rarely mention today. His trip was actually not as long or as dangerous as many others, including the earliest voyages around Africa and, of course, the circumnavigation of the world, both about the same time.

It sucks that we have made a hero out of a man with so few virtues, and a long list of vices. The results of his findings led to mass deaths in the Americas. Even if the great majority were not done by his hand, it's nothing to celebrate.

There have been so many wonderful people who have given the world so much and asked for so little in return. It's a crime they go unsung while Columbus is honored.

The remark about MLK and where he would have been born is ludicrous. Columbus never stepped foot in the US.

Well, without slavery, they'd still be in the dark ages in Africa, dying at age 30 of a cold. No offense to them, but it's still going on in some parts of Africa. So I doubt much would have changed. Despite all the bad things, in the end, slavery contributed Postitivly, mainly by (by ending it, at least) we gained many African-American writers, poets, and musicians into American society that wouldnt have been here if it wasnt for slavery in the 16 and 1700s

[AntiochusIII]

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

That's another misconception, Kaiser. Africa was depopulated and de-civilized because of slavery. The cultures were developing themselves, as well, and they stood better chance of evolving than the Mesoamerican cultures, thanks to them being in the larger part of the world's continents. The institution of slavery in such massive sizes led to increased violence among Africans. Cities, towns, and villages emptied of population; older, inner continent kingdoms fell to be replaced by coastal slave-trading kingdoms, who were reliant on Europeans to survival, and were more barbaric in terms of the scale of violence they committed.

The only real Kingdom I could think of that showed promise was Zimbabwe, in Africa. I'm probably wrong.

Either way, Columbus was a hero!

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I don't think Columbus was evil per se, but he certainly wasn't a great guy and definately did a lot of horrible things.

How do we know that without Columbus we would not be better off? Capo you are making a lot of assumptions, such as that we wouldn't have a lot of African American writers and such, but how do we know that there wouldn't be a wave of more peaceful immigration, or another source for cultural diversity without Columbus? I think that is looking a bit too far ahead of the events, I think we should judge him based on what he did and the immediate consequences.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Columbus was an ass.

So was MLK, in my opinion. You're point?

The thing is, ITALIAN AMERICANS DONT HAVE TOO MANY HEROS! So we tend to be very defensive. So that's why I'm definding Columbus wholeheartedly.

[solypsist]

unfortunately efforts between Native Americans and Italian-Americans to compromise and just have an Italian pride day or something haven't materialized. I can see both sides of the issue, and they're both strong for very different reasons.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

MLK? An ass? MLK was a great man who did great things. It's the greedy ingrates who spearheaded Afirmative Action and bastardized his dream of equality that are the asses.

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Oh come on Kaiser. That's like saying that the Crusades are Jesus' fault for Him dying on the Cross.

Funny how in editing this I realized I called you "Capo". Old habits never die.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Capo that is a totally unreasonable point, by that logic nobody should have dreams because somebody could come along and totally futz it up after you die.

Well you could have a holiday for Italian-American policemen that fought the mafia back when it was really big. From what I remember they tended to be some of the best as they were very dedicated and were the best for infiltrating the organization. Why do you need an Italian-American hero? Sorry if I'm being insensitive, but I don't get it at the moment, please explain.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

Kaiser:

I'm KofC, so I honor Columbus even though I am aware of his faults. He was a man, niether good nor evil and certainly not perfect, who changed history. He should be remembered.

If you seriously believe that MLK's dream of equality was a mistake because others twisted it, then there would be a lot of other dreamers who would also have to revile, inlcuding Jeshua (Jesus) of Galilee. His dream was neither exclusive nor immoral, and you should remember that foremost of all -- regardless of what others did following his death.

Seamus

[Strike For The South]

The mans from Genoa my pops is from Genoa end of story

[Redleg]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

Get off the degrading of Martin Luther King - your about to go to far with your comments.

Colombus was not the great man that the legend tries to make him out to be. He was just a man - who happened to have the best detailed record of the discovery of the America's so he gets more the day named after him. If Colombus only got a day named after him the real credit for the discovery of the new world goes to the individual who the America's are named after. It seems that in your attempt to defend Colombus you are also forgetting the other Europeans that discovered the New World first. You know those Vikings that braved the seas many years before Colombus was even born.

[Strike For The South]

The fact that he created such a dream led them to bastardize it. If he hadn't created the dream, they wouldnt have bastardized it. Simple really.

Thats really sad the man did so mush good than maybe anyone in history and you are belitling him for it for a what a few bad apples have done nice job ******

/edited for language

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Let's not lynch Kaiser too much - we are straying off topic to begin with.

Um.

On a more related note, I don't have off from school on Colombus Day.

Though I do get an extra day for it off in November.

[Papewaio]

Most of the deaths caused where by disease, not much could have stopped that, even with todays technology if we landed in a country without immunity the people would be wiped out to a tenth of the population with years.

So all it would take is a single diesease carrying Euroasian to wash up on the shores of the Americas and bang... 90% dead.

CC was wrong in thinking the world was not a sphere ..he equated it to be like a womans breast and he was going from Spain to India around the nipple not the base... nice idea, just not accurate... he believed the circumference of the world at the point he was navigating was shorter.

After all he thought he had landed in India, and if it wasn't for the Americas being there he would have died in the Pacific...

[Strike For The South]

Let's not lynch Kaiser too much - we are straying off topic to begin with.

Um.

On a more related note, I don't have off from school on Colombus Day.

Though I do get an extra day for it off in November.

I get it off

[Uesugi Kenshin]

That sucks, we get five dayds off. Sat-Wed. Tuesday and Wednesday are inservices though. We didn't get Columbus Day off until about two years ago though.

Should we celebrate Columbus just because he impacted history? We don't have a Hitler day..... (Guy Fawkes Day seems similar though, anyone want to explain why that is a holiday? BTW I know that is really extreme, no comparison between Hitler and Columbus.)

Columbus will still be remembered, remember we have public schools and to the best of my knwoledge they all teach their students at least the basics of Columbus, if not more. The day is not his only recognition, he gets a substantial amount of space in the history book my AP History class is using.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

he equated it to be like a womans breast and he was going from Spain to India around the nipple not the base

Oh baby!

X-rated geography.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Gah...sorry...I lost my mind, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm...sorry. That's all I can say.

I didn't mean for it to come out like that. What I meant to say was that while one can say Columbus was an ass, one could say MLK was too. Everyone has their faults, but you must look past them in some cases.

Esp. when it comes to Italian Americans. I mean, we are the most discriminated against group in America. Period. I mean, despite that it was us (Amerigo Vespucci, Columbo, Caboto, et cetera), America hates us. More so than the blacks even. They've even gone so far as to taking away our rights to things we invented (i.e. The Telephone).

So this gets very personal for me, I've gotten into fights over these things. So I'll try not to lose it again. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[solypsist]

oh please. please, please, please.

I mean, we are the most discriminated against group in America.

[Papewaio]

So I suppose in America pizza, pasta and lattes are very unpopular as they are associated with Italians.