Colombus Day

[Kanamori]

Giving black and mexican people a better chance at getting into college has nothing to do with economic situation, or they'd do it for all poor people.

The idea is racial equality. Those minorities make less on average.http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/nativetr...excelsesize=18
The goal is to get these numbers -- for blacks, whites, latinos, etc. -- to match.
Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do. Therefore, those poorer minorities on average have a lesser education at their disposal, which gives less opportunitiy for secondaryschooling.

Economic Situation will not deter you from seeking a higher education.

Not directly, no. Someone who lives in a violent ghetto has a very different life experience than someone who doesn't.

The huge majority of America is also white. Your point?

There is uneven distribution, though. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2005/nativetr...excelsesize=15

Simply put, if your education and economic standing were solely your choice, wouldn't you expect the averaged numbers to be the same for every race?

Obviously, it is not as simple as "I want to go to college, so I will."

[Kanamori]

The man had no vices that I know of.

He was not dedicated to his wife. He cheated on her sexually.

It's the greedy ingrates who spearheaded Afirmative Action and bastardized his dream of equality that are the asses.

"Whenever this issue [compensatory treatment] is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up."

- MLK

[Byzantine Prince]

I think Christopher Columbus started something special. He is part of history's greatest figureheads and he should be remembered. The continent should be renamed Columbia IMO, but whatever. He also lived in Chios(Greece) as I hear.


I don't like MLK at all. I don't like how he is asking for something more then equality. African Americans are people and they are free now. They have equal rights, that's all they need in a country like America, a country that people [to this day] risk their necks to come to, sometimes with no economic assets at all.

Oh and need I mention the majority become successful in their ventures despite these hardships?

[King Henry V]

Am I the only person here who thinks that the more holidays, the better?

[Devastatin Dave]

Am I the only person here who thinks that the more holidays, the better?

Nope, you're not the only one!!! If Bill Clinton had a holiday I'd have another day off, drunk as a skunk (like most holidays!!!) with a cigar stuck in my butt in honor of him!!!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My pic was black and white. My skin color and accent give me off as a typical NY Italian.

Which means you are largely of Southern Italian and/or Sicialian extraction. You should be pleased to know that you would be discriminated against by many of the "old school" folks in Northern Italy as well.

Moreover, lots of American Southerners will class you as crass and aggressive because of your NY verbal style.


What I'm driving at is -- get over it! There will always be people who react to you for stupid external reasons. If it prevents you from getting a job, keep good records and lodge the appropriate civil suit. Otherwise, write off people who treat you superficially and move on to those who don't. Life is too rich to wallow in self-pity, however well its seems justified.

Seamus

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Which means you are largely of Southern Italian and/or Sicialian extraction. You should be pleased to know that you would be discriminated against by many of the "old school" folks in Northern Italy as well.

Moreover, lots of American Southerners will class you as crass and aggressive because of your NY verbal style.


What I'm driving at is -- get over it! There will always be people who react to you for stupid external reasons. If it prevents you from getting a job, keep good records and lodge the appropriate civil suit. Otherwise, write off people who treat you superficially and move on to those who don't. Life is too rich to wallow in self-pity, however well its seems justified.

Seamus

I mostly ignore it, to be honest with you. But what pissess me off is alot of Blacks and other minorities not being able to get over it. Which makes me pissed, I've been through the same. if not worse, yet do I bring it up every 10 seconds? Do I play the rascist card? Nope.

[Xiahou]

Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do.

That statement is kind of obvious- poor means less money than wealthy. However, if you meant urban school districts vs rural/suburban school districts- I think you're wrong in most cases. Large cities have huge tax bases, and more importantly, with poorer students they're entitled to a much larger chunk of the available federal monies.

For example, in 2003 the median expenditures per student was $7,254, while Washington DC school district spent $11,847 per student, far above the average. Of course, they're still getting terrible educations- but that's another matter.
link

[Soulforged]

I really don't understand most posts here, for what I know the Columbus Day is not exactly Columbus Day, but the Day of Ethnicism (to put it in some way).

[Don Corleone]

1) Columbus didn't 'discover' America, St. Brendan did.

2) He didn't establish the first colony in North America, Leif Ericsson did.

3) Columbus, in an effort to find a shorter trade route to India, proved to the Europeans that there were lands here ready for colonization & exploitation. What has happened in the 513 years since his voyage really depends upon what side of history upon which you happened to land.

Columbus was a vile bastard. If he hadn't sailed to the Western Hemisphere the EU wouldn't be plagued with the ultimate evil it now faces, the United States of America [/sarcasm off]

Honestly folks, that's how the European crowd's coming off (and of course, Tachikaze can't miss his chance to get a few licks in). Yes, Kasier's being a bit nationalistic, but you are engaging in a bit of snobbery yourselves. But of course, I'm just paranoid, you're all above that sort of thing...

[Soulforged]

1) Columbus didn't 'discover' America, St. Brendan did.

Columbus discovered a land to the west of Europe of the size of a continent, a guy named Americo Vespuci gave the land his name. The term discovered also must have some reciprocity on the information and noticing of it's existence. Yes the vikings discovered it previously, but Europe didn't give it much importance, the one that had some effects was the one of Columbus

2) He didn't establish the first colony in North America, Leif Ericsson did.

So...

3) Columbus, in an effort to find a shorter trade route to India, proved to the Europeans that there were lands here ready for colonization & exploitation. What has happened in the 513 years since his voyage really depends upon what side of history upon which you happened to land.

No what happened is out there written, if you want to analize it from your own subjective point of view is another problem, but it doesn't depends on that. I'm really amazed in how people see some "killers" (to say it in some manner) like Julius Gaius Caesar or Alexander the Great like real heros or people worthy of celebration, and others that did basically the same as vile and demonized.
Said this I ask again, maybe someone can give me an answer: Why is that this discussion surrounds the figure of Columbus and penetrates it, when in reallity the Columbus Day is the celebration of ethnical differences...

[Don Corleone]

Soulforged,

I'm not sure I follow your intent, except to besmirch any historical figure of European descent.

You do realize that at the time Columbus landed, the Sioux and the Pawnee fought some horrible wars that included genocides of entire villages visited upon the other side? There were no 'noble innocents' living over here. You also realize that in many ways, Columbus and the subsequent European colonization was a de facto result of the over population pressures renaissance Europe was experiencing. I cannot argue that one can blindly assign the role of hero to Columbus. But your lablelling him a 'killer' as you say shows an equal bias, in this case against him and the Euro-centric view. Perhaps you could make an effort to remain objective and view European colonialism as part of the human tapestry. I'm sure the countless civilizations that had the misfortune to encounter the Aztecs, the Incas and the Sioux, all of whom practiced the same sort of genocide the Europeans practiced upon them, would tell you there's not much difference between a Cortez and a Montezuma.

[Soulforged]

I'm not sure I follow your intent, except to besmirch any historical figure of European descent.

Simple answer my final question, because I think that this discussion started wrong from the begining...

You do realize that at the time Columbus landed, the Sioux and the Pawnee fought some horrible wars that included genocides of entire villages visited upon the other side?

Yes, here it happened too, in all America.

There were no 'noble innocents' living over here. You also realize that in many ways, Columbus and the subsequent European colonization was a de facto result of the over population pressures renaissance Europe was experiencing.

Yes...

I cannot argue that one can blindly assign the role of hero to Columbus.

Neither, nor I want to, I just want to point out that this is not about Colombus.

But your lablelling him a 'killer' as you say shows an equal bias, in this case against him and the Euro-centric view.

You want me to call him a Conqueror (an "Adelantado" like the Spanish kings called them) following the classic sentence it's the same.

Perhaps you could make an effort to remain objective and view European colonialism as part of the human tapestry.

I'm remaining objective you were the one to take sarcasm and call him a "vile bastard". I don't care if Caesar of Columbus were bastards or not, but it surprises me that the discussion over their personalities, of wich we don't know nothing about, always take place, and we can say who was the bastard and who not.

I'm sure the countless civilizations that had the misfortune to encounter the Aztecs, the Incas and the Sioux, all of whom practiced the same sort of genocide the Europeans practiced upon them, would tell you there's not much difference between a Cortez and a Montezuma.

No there isn't and it was never my point, you misunderstood me, however my final question remains still unasnwered...

[Kanamori]

Poor school districts tend not to get as much money per student as wealthier districts do.

That statement is kind of obvious- poor means less money than wealthy.

There is the possiblity of a big enough disparity between tax rates that each district could use to fund their respective schools resulting in more money per student in the poorer district. I cannot think of one example of this, but the possibility is there and taht is why I chose the wussier statement w/ "tend". Perhaps, there was confusion to who was poor: the raw amount of money a school district has, being poor in that sense, versus the district being an impoverished area. I meant the latter.

[Don Corleone]

Sorry, I should have read your final question more closely, as actually, I got the most out of it from your post.

All civilizations have creation myths. As any Western civilization in the New World was created in 1492, they frame their existence in light of Columbus (as far as we know, none of the viking settlements in Newfoundland proved viable). The Mormons offer some alternative ideas, but most anthropologists agree that Western civilization entered the Western Hemisphere with Columbus and the Conquistadores that followed.

So, while Columbus may very well be an Italian American folk hero, at the same time, he is viewed, metahporically as the founder of Western civilization in the New World, by the Westernized occupants of the New World, as well as by the indigenous peoples of the Americas (and Africa) that trace the begining of their woes to his arrival at San Juan, and even by those members of the Westernized Old World that are not all that happy about these upstarts who know not their place. All three groups trace the lineage of this historical event/problem/divergence to the mythological Columbus. It's not the man that's worshipped/villified every 2nd Monday of October (except of course by Italian Americans in the United States, and for them, it's a cultural heritage celebration) it's the idea that he represents.... European influence in Africa, North America and South America.

[Productivity]

What I find interesting is how readily Capo/Kaiser is willing to switch between being proud and accepting of his Italian heritage and being ashamed and denying it.

When there's something to be proud of he's going round saying he has the heritage. When there's something to be ashamed of (in his view anyway) he's denying the heritage (to the extent of changing his login here). Either you accept it and take the good with the bad, or you deny it and take neither the good or the bad - picking and choosing is just pathetic.

[Soulforged]

So, while Columbus may very well be an Italian American folk hero, at the same time, he is viewed, metahporically as the founder of Western civilization in the New World, by the Westernized occupants of the New World, as well as by the indigenous peoples of the Americas (and Africa) that trace the begining of their woes to his arrival at San Juan, and even by those members of the Westernized Old World that are not all that happy about these upstarts who know not their place. All three groups trace the lineage of this historical event/problem/divergence to the mythological Columbus. It's not the man that's worshipped/villified every 2nd Monday of October (except of course by Italian Americans in the United States, and for them, it's a cultural heritage celebration) it's the idea that he represents.... European influence in Africa, North America and South America.

And I agree, exactly my point, but everyone misses it and demonises Columbus when there's no point on doint it.
And Columbus, Colón, Colom was spanish:link

[Kaiser of Arabia]

And I agree, exactly my point, but everyone misses it and demonises Columbus when there's no point on doint it.
And Columbus, Colón, Colom was spanish:link

It's been established long before your study from Discovery Channel, a very weird resource (I find half the stuff they claim ludicrous), that Columbus was a Genoan.

[Soulforged]

It's been established long before your study from Discovery Channel, a very weird resource (I find half the stuff they claim ludicrous), that Columbus was a Genoan.

Well if you've any way to refute their findings (wich are not their's of course, but from private investigators), then show them...

[Divinus Arma]

Colombus discoverd that trash on the 12th. On my b-day.

Therefore, colombus monkey day rocks out, oh yeah!

[Steppe Merc]

Mabye Colombus was important. But why not celebrate other people who helped shaped today? Why not William the Bastard day, for introducing new influences to England? Or a bunch of people cross the Bering strait (though there were people earlier here than commonly believed). Or Arasces Day, celebrating the fact that by conquering Parthia, he allowed his predescors to restore Iranian culture to Iran. There are a whole bunch of pivotal events and people through out history, that does not mean they need a holiday.

That said, I'd be for it if I got off of school for it. But I don't, so I have the reason to condem it.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Mabye Colombus was important. But why not celebrate other people who helped shaped today? Why not William the Bastard day, for introducing new influences to England? Or a bunch of people cross the Bering strait (though there were people earlier here than commonly believed). Or Arasces Day, celebrating the fact that by conquering Parthia, he allowed his predescors to restore Iranian culture to Iran. There are a whole bunch of pivotal events and people through out history, that does not mean they need a holiday.

That said, I'd be for it if I got off of school for it. But I don't, so I have the reason to condem it.

I take off school for it, though they don't give it to us. My way of protesting.

We should celebrate alot more people. Vespucci, Patton, Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette, etc. But we don't. Why take away things we do celebrate, then?

[Strike For The South]

I get off *thinks how happy he is to be attending a lax Texas public high school*

[Soulforged]

I take off school for it, though they don't give it to us. My way of protesting.

We should celebrate alot more people. Vespucci, Patton, Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette, etc. But we don't. Why take away things we do celebrate, then?

I think that you're understimating the impact of the discovery of Columbus, the picture of all the world changed in that critical movement. On the other hand why should I celebrate the day of Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette? This are only USA celebrities not world wide, Columbus is, at least in western society.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I think that you're understimating the impact of the discovery of Columbus, the picture of all the world changed in that critical movement. On the other hand why should I celebrate the day of Eisenhower, Lee, Houston, Gates, Lafeyette? This are only USA celebrities not world wide, Columbus is, at least in western society.

That's what I'm refering to, because as far as I know, Columbus day is really only that big of a deal in America.

[Soulforged]

That's what I'm refering to, because as far as I know, Columbus day is really only that big of a deal in America.

Well then you're not aware of it's importance in the rest of America at least...

[yesdachi]

Ummm every immigrant group was discriminated against iirc. The Irish were, do I say that we need a holiday celebrating a famous Irish-American? No, that is because I don't need the nation to tell me to. Not saying you do, just saying what I do.
Also immigrants were never discriminated against quite as badly as blacks. Period, never happened, in people's minds even they were above the blacks.

There is St. Patty's day, although he wasnt irish-amnerican the holiday does make for a fine irish pride day.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I think it's more of an excuse to get drunk for most....
Besides on St. Patty's Day most people pretend to be Irish or join in anyway. Anyway the point was not every ethnicity has a famous figure celebrated and it doesn't exactly matter that Columbus was Italian, or Spanish or whatever, you still have to take into account the atrocities and trends he encouraged and perpatrated.

[Soulforged]

I think it's more of an excuse to get drunk for most....
Besides on St. Patty's Day most people pretend to be Irish or join in anyway. Anyway the point was not every ethnicity has a famous figure celebrated and it doesn't exactly matter that Columbus was Italian, or Spanish or whatever, you still have to take into account the atrocities and trends he encouraged and perpatrated.

Not you're wrong. The only thing that matters really is what the moment of his discovery represents, taking all the killing aside, that's what's celebrated in Columbus Day, not the figure of Columbus itself or his doings.

[ichi]

A) I get a paid day off

B) Lots of people did bad things over the course of history

C) It'll be the next US holiday that gets revisited, prolly renamed/readjusted to commemorate Reagan or the Iraq war, followed by Labor Day, which will become Halliburton Corporate Interests Day (which we will all be required to work and give our earnings to Cheney)

D) Somewhat surprised this thread hasnt been locked

ichi