Carthage

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edyzmedieval 15:33 10-08-2005

Hey guys.

Can you give me some good links regarding the whole Carthaginian history?!

Also, can you reccomend some good books about the Carthaginians?!

Very important guys. My new book, for the Mead Hall.

Thanks!!!

Craterus 20:45 10-08-2005

Tried Googling Carthaginian history? I found a good page through Google before, showed family tree's and timelines.

AntiochusIII 21:33 10-08-2005

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Formed in the 800s BC, by a Phoenician Queen named Dido.

That, might I point out, is the creation myth of the city, along the lines of Aeneas and the brothers Romulus and Remus of Rome. More likely it was founded by Tyrian traders looking to establish an outpost against the competing/raiding Greek seafarers. Carthage's bay and location was perfect for that.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Carthage was a colony of the Phoenicians, and outlasted them as a nation.

Found specifically by the famous Phoenician city of Tyre, I might add.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
By the 400s BC it was a thriving commercial empire, and wages several wars against Syracuse for posession of Sicily. IIRC, nobody won in the long run.

Though Carthage was really on the verge of winning by the time Rome arrived at Messana. Then again, both sides were on the verge of winning many times in the on-and-off conflicts.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Before the first punic war, Carthage and Rome banded together-ish to drive Pyrhuss out of Sicily.

And Italy.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
This eventually led to the conflict over Messana with Rome, and after about 200 years of war and half a million lives (Estimated) on both sides later, Rome took Sicily and Sardinia from Carthage, and imposed a nasty treaty which restricted their army and navy to a very small size, and imposed awful war indemnities.

20 years, not 200. The 200 number is used for the two centuries in which all three Punic Wars take place. Making Carthage one of the longest-lasting rivals in the history of the Roman Republic.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
This, in turn, led to the 2nd Punic War. Spain had become mostly under Carthages rule, and this led to a bit of worry among the romans, and a treaty was signed that said the Carthaginians could not cross a certain river (the Ebro) in Spain. Hannibal, son of a general who did very well in the first Punic War, decided to cross the Ebro and lay siege to Seguntum, a city allied to the Romans.

The father is Hamilcar Barca, a war hero of the original Punic War. He was the man who started the conquest of Spain in his own attempt to revive Carthage's power. Though Carthaginian Spain is more independent to the elder council (108?) at Carthage than it seems. Hamilcar was succeeded by his son-in-law, Hasdrubal, before Hannibal succeeds him. Segentum, by the way, was within the Carthaginian side of the Ebro. That was the key of the conflict and why Hannibal felt justified to attack it in the first place.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
After this, the Romans declared war on Carthage, but Hannibal managed to avoid engagement until he had moved his army all the way accross the alps into Italy, where he crushed the romans in several embarassing defeats.

He did face lots of conflict along the way though. Just not with Romans, but local tribes. By the time he reached Italy, the gigantic 100,000 men army was reduced to about 20,000. Nonetheless, his victories made him one of the most famous generals ever.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
Hannibal governed Carthage for awhile, getting rid of corruption in the Carthaginian senate. After awhile of this, the Carthaginian Senate got sick of him, and tried to turn him over to the romans. He spent the rest of his life on the run, and commited suicide eventually.

The Carthaginian senate didn't just got sick of him. Hannibal was virtually put forward a revolution of sorts that would bring down the power of Carthage's corrupted aristocracy. They, of course, could not allow that. In one way, Hannibal was a predecessor of Julius Caesar, albeit he failed. Hannibal was a successful ruler while he lasted, though, quickly recovering the city-state from the brink of economic and social crisis after such a major defeat. He committed suicide after Antiochus III, the Seleucid king whom Hannibal went to seek asylum with, was defeated by Rome at Magnesia, and was forced to agree in turning Hannibal to the Romans. The man would not allow his pride to be broken and killed himself, knowing what kind of fate awaited him if he was in Romans' hands.

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
In Carthage, all was well until 146 (or 143, I forget) BC, when the Romans finally got sick of Carthage, and had it taken down stone by stone, salted the fields, took slaves, and forced the rest to rebuild 10 miles inland. The destruction of Carthage is also referred to as a 3rd Punic War, although it was decidedly one-sided.

It's 149. 146 was the downfall, after a three-years siege. The Roman who was the key to raising the Senate's ire against Carthage once again was Cato. That man I hate, the epitome of conservatism at its worst and most extreme. If I'm right, he (or maybe, another Cato...) was the man who brought down the fortunes of Scipio Africanus, the Roman war hero.

I might add also, that the Carthaginian military is famously dependent on a mercenary army of really diverse backgrounds. The core force of their army were the Phoenician-Libyan people of North Africa, though. And they did have true elite forces (in small numbers), along the line of Alexander and the Successor states, unlike the Romans.

edyzmedieval 08:52 10-09-2005

Wow...

Thanks guys for the info.

caesar44 14:24 10-09-2005

Segentum, by the way, was within the Carthaginian side of the Ebro. That was the key of the conflict and why Hannibal felt justified to attack it in the first place.

Correct , it was his standpoint , but according to the treaty of 241 , Carthage could not attack any of Rome's allys and Saguntum was in alliance with Rome .

he (or maybe, another Cato...) was the man who brought down the fortunes of Scipio Africanus, the Roman war hero.

Yes it was he , that is , Cato the Censor , in 184 (Africanus died in 183 , this conflict between Cato and Scipio Africanus have allways intrigued me but the sources are rather silence about it)

cunobelinus 15:42 10-12-2005

i am reading a book about the punic wars by adrian goldsmith and it is very good explains in detail about carthage and rome.good information on how they fort and the units they had .They are an interesting lot.

Alexanderofmacedon 16:45 10-12-2005

"The War with Hannibal" by: Livy.

Penguin Classics.

Originally Posted by :
Hannibal, son of a general who did very well in the first Punic War, decided to cross the Ebro and lay siege to Seguntum, a city allied to the Romans.

I think some others have stated this before, but it was closer to New Carthage then to the Ebro.

caesar44 19:53 10-12-2005

The War with Hannibal" by: Livy.

Penguin Classics.

Quote:
Hannibal, son of a general who did very well in the first Punic War, decided to cross the Ebro and lay siege to Seguntum, a city allied to the Romans.

I think some others have stated this before, but it was closer to New Carthage then to the Ebro.

Yes , Saguntum was "below" the Ebro , but Livy is right ! How ? He said "decided to cross the Ebro..." (that is one thing , and the second is...) "...and lay siege to Saguntum" . For example , one can say :he invaded Scotland and took Berlin" - there is no contradiction here , it is simply 2 different things .
I think we should look for a translator here , you really can look at it that way or the other . What do you think ?

Red Harvest 20:17 10-12-2005

Originally Posted by caesar44:
Segentum, by the way, was within the Carthaginian side of the Ebro. That was the key of the conflict and why Hannibal felt justified to attack it in the first place.

Correct , it was his standpoint , but according to the treaty of 241 , Carthage could not attack any of Rome's allys and Saguntum was in alliance with Rome .

Rome had violated the treaty by siding with them against Carthage in what was to be Carthage's domain according to the treaty. Hannibal didn't let them get away with the violation.

edyzmedieval 20:51 10-12-2005

Originally Posted by Red Harvest:
Rome had violated the treaty by siding with them against Carthage in what was to be Carthage's domain according to the treaty. Hannibal didn't let them get away with the violation.

Battle of river Trebia.

Thanks guys. Any good books about the complete history?!

caesar44 20:52 10-12-2005

Here are some reasons not to think that the Roman violated the treaty of 241 -
1. The treaty of 241 did not forbade the Romans from concluding alliances with communities South of the Ebro .

2. "About 225 BC, the Romans, disquieted by the growth of Carthaginian power in Spain, concluded an alliance with the Carthaginian general Hasdrubal that guaranteed the independence of Saguntum and required his forces not to cross the Río Ebro." (http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/)

3. "This ‘River’ causes a problem to modern historians. If, as thought by the majority of scholars, the river is the Ebro, in northen Iberia [Spain], then Saguntum is a Greek colony allied with Rome, but a hundred miles inside the Carthaginian sphere of influence. If the River was the Jucar, then Saguntum was the southern outpost of the Roman Empire, but within the territory ceded to Rome. This second choice, the Jucar south of Saguntum, makes much more sense, considering the faulty geography of the ancient world." (http://www.ancientroute.com/cities/saguntum.htm)

4. "Earlier, while Hamilcar was still establishing control of Spain, Rome was concerned over Carthaginian resurgence. In the 220’s BC, they established a treaty with Carthage limiting expansion to anything south of the Ebro. Saguntum, a small town in that territory, had entered into an alliance with Rome, giving the Romans a small stronghold in the heart of Carthaginian lands." ( http://www.unrv.com/empire/second-punic-war.php)

So , as I have said - 1. the treaty of 241 did not forbid a roman alliance with saguntum , 2. - Some say that the "river" was not the Ebro and 3. By all reports , the Carthaginians knew that Saguntum is not for them to take . Many scholars suggests that Hannibal knew exactly what he was doing by taking Saguntum , he wanted an excuse for his war .

Edit : Polybius - "This being so, it is an acknowledged fact that the Saguntines, a good many years before the time of Hannibal, placed themselves under the protection of Rome. The surest proof of this, and one accepted by the Carthaginians themselves, is that when a civil disturbance broke out at Saguntum they did not call in the mediation of the Carthaginians, although they were close at hand and already concerning themselves with Spanish matters, but that of the Romans, and with their help set right the affairs of the state. Therefore, if we take the destruction of Saguntum to be the cause of the war we must allow that the Carthaginians were in the wrong in beginning the war, both in view of the treaty of Lutatius, in which it was stipulated that the allies of each should be secure from attack by the other, and in view of the convention made with Hasdrubal, by which the Carthaginians undertook not to cross the Ebro in arms."

Alexanderofmacedon 22:16 10-12-2005

"The War with Hannibal"

That's the best one...it's by Livy...

Red Harvest 22:39 10-12-2005

caesar44,

I've heard it all before. It's called revisionist history...by the Romans.

All of this was of course written later. Rome had already committed violations by snagging Sardinia and such, this appears to be another example of their strong arming a weakened Carthage (the 226 "agreement" being yet another example.) There is no way I'm going to believe the Roman justification. It smacks of typical Livy theater (he knew his audience.) The city was in the Carthaginians sphere. Considering Rome's history at the time, I'm satisfied that the Romans were the aggressors and their supposed justifications ring hollow. They reaped what they had sown.

Alexanderofmacedon 22:43 10-12-2005

They were scared of Hannibal, so they got him...

Big King Sanctaphrax 22:43 10-12-2005

Originally Posted by edyzmedieval:
Battle of river Trebia.

Thanks guys. Any good books about the complete history?!

Get hold of Adrian Goldsworthy's The Fall of Carthage. It's a very good overview, and covers all three wars. Goldsworthy is eminently readable as well.

Red Harvest 01:45 10-13-2005

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube:
From what i've read of Polybius, neither side technically violated the treaty, and both were eager to fight.

Polybius is, at least compared to Livy and Herodotus, which I'm reading atm, very objective, concise, and as factual as was within his limits.

Polybius is one of the most reliable there was in the era, but he was still tied directly to the Roman viewpoint. His sources were primarily Roman. No matter how objective he might have tried to be (and let's not forget how strong his ties were to the Scipios) one can only expect so much.

Don't get the idea that I'm anti-Roman. There is much about the Republic that is appealing. Each of the societies of the time had its virtues and flaws. The claims of Carthaginian treachery by Rome are heavily hyped. Rome was opportunistic, and certainly not alone in that regard. Where it differed from many of its neighbors was in how consistent it was in expanding its reach, yet without over reaching. (There are some parallels to the way the U.S./colonists dealt with the native americans--although I would actually describe Rome of the Etruscan/Samnite/Punic/Greek times as being *less* ruthless overall.)

conon394 02:58 10-13-2005

Red Harvest

[QUOTE] I've heard it all before. It's called revisionist history...by the Romans.[/QOUTE]

I don’t know that it does, it seems to me you are assuming the Ebro treaty was reciprocal. As far I as I can see Rome asked for and received an assurance from the Hasdrubal that he had no interests north of the Ebro (I would suspect mostly on behalf of their firm ally Massilia), they never offered any balanced assurance that they had no interest south of it. In any case, it was clearly an agreement of convenience; Hasdrubal seems to have been acting in a quasi-independent capacity since the Carthaginian government later claimed the undertaking was not even binding on them.

Carthage was to some extent burned by a dangerous game of bait and switch; the home government seems to have largely ignored the Barca’s Spanish Empire as long as the profits were rolling in (and perhaps slept better at night thinking about the large Barca professional army that was comfortably far away, but near enough to Rome). In the end they failed to really keep a close eye on (or any real means to check or influence) the Barca’s; would they precipitate a conflict with Rome or offer up unilateral promises.

edyzmedieval 20:42 10-13-2005

Too bad Hannibal hadn't smacked the Romans....

Thanks BKS for the recommendation.

Rosacrux redux 09:24 10-14-2005

Had he, you wouldn't have the basis to create a "Byzantium Total War" mod

Considering the ties of the (Greek) Byzantium with Rome, I'd say you most probably would be doing a "Tyre: Total War" modification

edyzmedieval 21:01 10-14-2005

Rosacrux,

My first idea was Carthage:Total War, but I saw that already there's one.
So, I went to Byzantium

Still, the Byzantines are my favourites.

But the Carthaginians really have an impressive history.

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