Carthage

**Red Harvest** · 10-13-2005, 01:45

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

From what i've read of Polybius, neither side technically violated the treaty, and both were eager to fight.

Polybius is, at least compared to Livy and Herodotus, which I'm reading atm, very objective, concise, and as factual as was within his limits.

Polybius is one of the most reliable there was in the era, but he was still tied directly to the Roman viewpoint. His sources were primarily Roman. No matter how objective he might have tried to be (and let's not forget how strong his ties were to the Scipios) one can only expect so much.

Don't get the idea that I'm anti-Roman. There is much about the Republic that is appealing. Each of the societies of the time had its virtues and flaws. The claims of Carthaginian treachery by Rome are heavily hyped. Rome was opportunistic, and certainly not alone in that regard. Where it differed from many of its neighbors was in how consistent it was in expanding its reach, yet without over reaching. (There are some parallels to the way the U.S./colonists dealt with the native americans--although I would actually describe Rome of the Etruscan/Samnite/Punic/Greek times as being *less* ruthless overall.)

**conon394** · 10-13-2005, 02:58

Red Harvest

[QUOTE] I've heard it all before. It's called revisionist history...by the Romans.[/QOUTE]

I don’t know that it does, it seems to me you are assuming the Ebro treaty was reciprocal. As far I as I can see Rome asked for and received an assurance from the Hasdrubal that he had no interests north of the Ebro (I would suspect mostly on behalf of their firm ally Massilia), they never offered any balanced assurance that they had no interest south of it. In any case, it was clearly an agreement of convenience; Hasdrubal seems to have been acting in a quasi-independent capacity since the Carthaginian government later claimed the undertaking was not even binding on them.

Carthage was to some extent burned by a dangerous game of bait and switch; the home government seems to have largely ignored the Barca’s Spanish Empire as long as the profits were rolling in (and perhaps slept better at night thinking about the large Barca professional army that was comfortably far away, but near enough to Rome). In the end they failed to really keep a close eye on (or any real means to check or influence) the Barca’s; would they precipitate a conflict with Rome or offer up unilateral promises.