BI (still) too easy for aggressive players

[Dorkus]

I won my WRE campaign VH/VH in 375 AD, 12 years after the start of my campaign. I have 10 provinces after turn 8 or so in my new AlemVH/VH campaign, including Rome.

The campaign AI is still far too susceptible to blitz tactics. If you focus your forces into a single point of attack, and expand quickly and early, the AI does not respond appropriately. In particular, it does not seem to scout out the cities you leave completely unguarded, so it does not recognize that the 500 man garrison stacks left behind are composed completely of peasants.

Just as importantly, it does not defend with focused forces. I rampaged through the ERE with a full stack army (mainly sar aux cav, which are vastly overpowered) and tore through the empire's armies piece-meal. I think the AI is too worried about splitting its forces to cover its entire empire (to maintain order), and not worried enough about the massive 6 star general controlled stack marching for its capital. It is assuming that I, like the AI, will be happy with taking one province. When I instead march straight on, exterminating every population behind me and trailing with a 500 man peasant garrison "support" army, it dies a quick death.

Oh well, I got one weekend out of it, which is better than I can say about any other game on the market :P

[Kor Khan]

I generally find that about ten turns at the beginning of the game of doing not much, just building up and not invading anywhere, makes the game more fun and challenging. Blitz tactics dont work that well anymore once the AI is built up (I dont have BI so I dont know how it works there though).

[KSEG]

I won my WRE campaign VH/VH in 375 AD, 12 years after the start of my campaign. I have 10 provinces after turn 8 or so in my new AlemVH/VH campaign, including Rome.

The campaign AI is still far too susceptible to blitz tactics. If you focus your forces into a single point of attack, and expand quickly and early, the AI does not respond appropriately. In particular, it does not seem to scout out the cities you leave completely unguarded, so it does not recognize that the 500 man garrison stacks left behind are composed completely of peasants.

Just as importantly, it does not defend with focused forces. I rampaged through the ERE with a full stack army (mainly sar aux cav, which are vastly overpowered) and tore through the empire's armies piece-meal. I think the AI is too worried about splitting its forces to cover its entire empire (to maintain order), and not worried enough about the massive 6 star general controlled stack marching for its capital. It is assuming that I, like the AI, will be happy with taking one province. When I instead march straight on, exterminating every population behind me and trailing with a 500 man peasant garrison "support" army, it dies a quick death.

Oh well, I got one weekend out of it, which is better than I can say about any other game on the market :P

Then why won't you DON'T do the blitz tactics?
Whats the fun if your going to finish the game in a hour?

[Bob the Insane]

I say each to their own, but as above, you get out of the game what you put in... We could get in a whole discussion of beating the game vs. playing the game, etc.. But that would be a little pointless. I can certainly understand that since you know how to beat the game pretty easily, where is the fun in handicapping yourself to give the AI a chance.

Perhapes one of the upcoming or converted mods would provide more of a challenge.

I would be interested in hearing a little more of your strategy, how you maintain order and deal with the WRER when they pop up while putting together a large enough army to reunit the empire (plus defending against the Berbers, Celts and Saxons)...

[Dorkus]

I would be interested in hearing a little more of your strategy, how you maintain order and deal with the WRER when they pop up while putting together a large enough army to reunit the empire (plus defending against the Berbers, Celts and Saxons)...

Here is a concise version of my post from the WRE turnaround thread. I never saw the WRER. What triggers their appearance? If it is date, perhaps I beat the game too quickly for them to appear.

1. Sell off useless buildings (each province should have AT MOST one troop type building; and none of the econ buildings are worth keeping except ports)

2. Keep only as many units as you need to maintain order; in particular, disband ALL cavalry that is far from the warfront. (300g upkeep)

3. Train a ton of peasants. (High man #; 25g upkeep)

4. Shift high law/influence generals to key locations. (especially gov on island north of carthage to carthage)

5. Change capital to central/strategic location. (had it in island north of carthage for first couple rounds)

6. Use and build arenas/races. 400 gold for 20% order; 800 gold for 30% order. Cannot be beat in a high pop province.

7. Build temple according to majority wishes. (eventually convert faction leader to pagan, even if by suicide, and change all provinces to pagan because combat bonuses are better)

I had some civil unrest but no revolts. The main thing is that there's a LOT of micromanagement in this strategy; you need to pick out the useless buildings to destroy, maintain ONLY enough troops to keep 80+% order, and eventually replace all garrisons with peasants. You also have to be very careful of which governors to send to which provinces (especially the one general with the christian relics; keep him sitting in enemy provinces)

But even if it's labor intensive and a bit boring, it's worth doing. Giving up provinces is counterproductive in the longrun. With 25g upkeep peasants, there is no reason to lose a single province. Even economically unproductive provinces can generate massive denari from taxes alone.

Once you get through the first couple rounds, you're raking in so much cash that you no longer even look at the treasury. Then start making an all (upgraded) sar aux cav army (for speed), tail it with an all peasant army (to hold the ladders the cav army builds prior to siege), and rampage through the map leading with a spy or two (who, if you're lucky, will often open the gates up, especially once he gains a few ranks)

[Dorkus]

Then why won't you DON'T do the blitz tactics?
Whats the fun if your going to finish the game in a hour?

Or why not just not use cavalry? Or not use generals?

Heck, let's field an all peasant army!!!



I'm not doing anything extraordinary. I'm just scouting ahead with spies and taking the stuff that is sitting there for the taking.

Anyone who has multiplayer experience in other strategy games of this sort would do the same thing.

[Akka]

Oh well, I got one weekend out of it, which is better than I can say about any other game on the market :P

Perhaps it means that it's not the game which has a problem, but you ?

[a_b_danner]

I've found it reasonably easy to expand once you get your economy going. I think the solution is to have faction specific barracks. I'm just finishing up a new export_desc_builidng where romans, barbs, nomads, huns, celts/berbers each have their own tech tree. So funtionally, Romans will have an easier time capturing former roman territories (or other roman factions), but will have a much tougher time going into barbarian territory. Horde factions will have a tougher time once they establish a new home, because they will have to build from scratch (I did shorten the build times to help compensate).

I'm also planning on modding the descr_strat to make it harder for the Romans right off the bat. Following that, i might do an 408 campaign, with Rome loosing quite a bit of its territories, and the Vandal horde on the French/Spanish Border. That should spice things up a bit.

[Dorkus]

[QUOTE=a_b_danner] I think the solution is to have faction specific barracks. QUOTE]

This would definitely make things harder. As things stand, with infinite retraining, you can replenish your entire army, no matter how devastated, in one round. And since there is no distinction between faction troop buildings, you can do it at the warfront, without having to take even a single turn to regroup. Even better, troops are still retrained at their original experience level. So if you have one gold bar horseman left in a cav unit, the entire unit reappears with gold bars!!!

[econ21]

[QUOTE=Dorkus]

I think the solution is to have faction specific barracks. QUOTE]

This would definitely make things harder. As things stand, with infinite retraining, you can replenish your entire army, no matter how devastated, in one round. And since there is no distinction between faction troop buildings, you can do it at the warfront, without having to take even a single turn to regroup. Even better, troops are still retrained at their original experience level. So if you have one gold bar horseman left in a cav unit, the entire unit reappears with gold bars!!!

Inspired by the Roma mod for RTR, I started playing with the houserule that you can only build or retrain troops at your capital. That, along with bringing balanced, historical armies makes RTR less of a walkover as the Romans.

To really increase the challenge, I think {EDIT}Puzz3D's houserule of never retraining units would be very effective. Even with faction specific barracks, it is still too easy to retrain. Unlike MTW, you can retrain a whole stack in one turn and, as you say, create veterans out of newbies.

I haven't adopted either rule with WRE yet, as I thought it would be tougher. But I may do. I've noticed that the horde horse archer armies cause a lot more attrition in my forces than I've experienced before in RTW or RTR, so retraining may be an even bigger issue.

[Kraxis]

To really increase the challenge, I think Kraxis's houserule of never retraining units would be very effective. Even with faction specific barracks, it is still too easy to retrain. Unlike MTW, you can retrain a whole stack in one turn and, as you say, create veterans out of newbies.

I don't remember saying that, though it is of course a very good idea. But I'm having enough challenge in my games. Should I suffer weak games then I would do certain things. Such as limiting the really good units (cataphracts, first cohorts, carroballiastae ect ect).

[Taiwan Legion]

I've found it reasonably easy to expand once you get your economy going. I think the solution is to have faction specific barracks. I'm just finishing up a new export_desc_builidng where romans, barbs, nomads, huns, celts/berbers each have their own tech tree. So funtionally, Romans will have an easier time capturing former roman territories (or other roman factions), but will have a much tougher time going into barbarian territory. Horde factions will have a tougher time once they establish a new home, because they will have to build from scratch (I did shorten the build times to help compensate).

I'm also planning on modding the descr_strat to make it harder for the Romans right off the bat. Following that, i might do an 408 campaign, with Rome loosing quite a bit of its territories, and the Vandal horde on the French/Spanish Border. That should spice things up a bit.

if you do that, make sure you share it. I'd like to play that.

[Red Harvest]

The opening blitz is something CA could address, but it would take some work. Essentially, a routine could be run to randomize starting positions/buildings/units to a limited degree. With fog of war, this would make blitz strategies very dangerous for the player. The current blitz relies on knowing ahead of time what the optimum strategy is, and where the enemy strenghts and weaknesses are. Remove that knowledge and it is a new game.

[Sjakihata]

Im a very slow player. It takes me time to move, mobilize and plan my advances. But when I do move, I have it all thought out. Be it a tricky navy landing, plots assassinations, ambushes or what not. When I do hit the opponent I am sure to win.

I can easily use the first 20+ turns just building my one or two settlements up and ready, while forging alliances, trade rights and other diplomacy.
Also I love to micromanage my characters, trade retinues, sending them off to special missions etc.

[Kekvit Irae]

omg zerg rush kekeke

[Dorkus]

The opening blitz is something CA could address, but it would take some work. Essentially, a routine could be run to randomize starting positions/buildings/units to a limited degree. With fog of war, this would make blitz strategies very dangerous for the player. The current blitz relies on knowing ahead of time what the optimum strategy is, and where the enemy strenghts and weaknesses are. Remove that knowledge and it is a new game.

Well, I don't think it should take anything that sophisticated. Two things mainly:

1. Attack PC cities that have peasant garrisons. As things stand, it seems that the AI is using mainly mancount to approximate strenght? That or it is just very passive.

2. Combine defensive forces in the face of a superior army, instead of attempting to hold every city. This may have to do with the AI's failed grasp of the efficacy of city walls. Against a human controlled army, walls just aren't that effective defensively.

[Bob the Insane]

I think the solution is to have faction specific barracks. I'm just finishing up a new export_desc_builidng where romans, barbs, nomads, huns, celts/berbers each have their own tech tree.

Rome Total Realism (RTR 6.1) does that and i for one am really looking forward to what ever they do with BI...

[antisocialmunky]

It's very hard to make an AI that can intellegently defend themselves against extremely aggressive unconventional moves. As far as I can tell, the TW AIs are very cautious but stubborn.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

omg zerg rush kekeke

Lol!

I was never any good at that - and the enemy zerg formation always seemed to attack in an intimidating "skull" formation - or maybe that's just me...

I'm sure there will be some good mods to toughen the outset if there is a demand for them - or better yet, figure how to do it yourself.

Using scripting you could possibly randomize the buildings, to an extent.

[Dorkus]

Perhaps it means that it's not the game which has a problem, but you ?

I'm not saying BI isn't a good game. It's a wonderful game. But I got three weeks out of RTW (learning how to handle squalor was particularly fun), and a few months out of MTW. Part of this is because there's a learning curve, and once you get past the learning curve for one TW game, you don't need to fight through it again.

But a bigger part is that the game is not designed well for moderately aggressive players. Which is unfortunate because TW is a war game, first and foremost. Shouldn't CA have expected that some players would be, well, "warlike"?

[screwtype]

...the game is not designed well for moderately aggressive players. Which is unfortunate because TW is a war game, first and foremost. Shouldn't CA have expected that some players would be, well, "warlike"?

Yes, I would agree with that. None of the TW series really provides enough challenge, RTW especially. In fact, few PC strategy games provide much in the way of challenge in my experience.

However, I will say that I think you're "cheating" a little by building cav armies. Cav have such a big advantage on the battlefield due to their mobility that you can steamroll anyone with a cav army, at least that's the case for RTW (haven't played BI yet). Personally, I think cav units in RTW are far too cheap, both to buy and to maintain.

As for myself, I spend most of my gaming time these days playing the old strategy game Imperialism II. The graphics and battles are a long way from state of the art, but there are dozens of different variables you can set to "tweak" the game to just the right level of difficulty. I've found that by playing on a custom difficulty of about 200, with both "Aggressive Game" and penalty for human expansion set to "Maximum", that I can get a really good challenge from this game. I only wish RTW had more difficulty variables you could play with, having your choice limited to "Easy", "Medium" and "Hard" just doesn't cut it.

[Bartix]

Dorkus, why not try RTR 6.2?
Is very limiting to rusher tactic, and so much better game than vanilla it is shock!!
I play now heavy mods for long time, so I try vanilla and think " I had fun playing this?"

[Dorkus]

Dorkus, why not try RTR 6.2?
Is very limiting to rusher tactic, and so much better game than vanilla it is shock!!
I play now heavy mods for long time, so I try vanilla and think " I had fun playing this?"

Well, i'm not a big realism fan; I only care about gameplay. And real wars in this time period were not really that fun or tactical.

What exactly does rtr do? I've been to the site, and there's not a lot of specific info.