Remember Elian Gonzalez?

[Reverend Joe]

[Kaiser of Arabia]

so it seems people outside of the US are not allowed to be content. or at least appear so.

Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

that infant mortality one should really make Rabbit wonder why his countries is lagging behind Cubas

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

The concept of health is a very broad one and includes not only the biological order of the human being but, by definition, health is the complete biological, psychological and sociological well being of the individual. In other words, the psychological and sociological aspects must be added, inasmuch as the environment and living conditions impact directly on the quality of life of the individual, which is the main objective of a healthcare system.

If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success. However, if we talk about the real meaning of health and delve into all of the aspects that affect man as a social being, then there is no health in Cuba, and the degradation in the quality of life of the Cuban people is the only thing that socialism has achieved.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y98/nov98/19e1.htm

And take a look at this

Health Care in Cuba: Myth Versus Reality

According to the Pan American Health Organization, the Cuban Government currently devotes a smaller percentage of its budget for health care than such regional countries as Jamaica, Costa Rica, and the Dominican Republic.

http://www.canf.org/Issues/medicalapartheid.htm

[Soulforged]

I'd disagree with this in principle, but its also worth adding that Castro will die shortly, whereupon Cuba will no doubt be immediately opened up to exploitation by sugar producing multinationals paying well under the US minimum wage, just like the good old days. Why, I bet they'll even have those foreign owned casinos open again soon. So Elian will get his chance to live in a capitalist paradise anyway.

Maybe Castro is following actually some real socialist doctrine up there. But I asure you this, if his brother lives long enough until he dies, the goverment will pass to him. If you think that Castro is a "bloody sadist" ( ), then wait for his brother, infamous for being just that, even inside "the family".

Not much. They're a communist state; they never have good economies.

YEH!! Sure...errrr....

[Tribesman]

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

Nice cut and paste Gawian , so if you ignore things like infant mortality , life expectancy and healthcare then Cuba doesn't have healthcare ??????
So thats a way of saying yes cuba does have good healthcare but we will ignore that and go on about something else entirely

[English assassin]

If we limit the definition of health to a decrease in child mortality, longer life expectancy, primary healthcare, and the creation of research and biotechnological institutes, then Cuba is the image of socialist success.

This has to be satire, right? I mean, even I wouldn't have given Cuba such glowing praise as this? This is meant to REFUTE the idea they have good healthcare, or did I misunderstand?

Once again we see how opposites attract, since a similar train of thought equaiting health and the broader economic environment in defiance of the basic facts would have been very familiar to apologists for soviet Russia.

[Ser Clegane]

Oh come on your a smart guy. You know damn well why we have a higher infant mortality rate and it sure isnt because Cuba has better healthcare.

Curious - what do you mean by that, Gawain? Why do you think do the US have a higher infant mortality rate?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Curious - what do you mean by that, Gawain? Why do you think do the US have a higher infant mortality rate?

Becuse of things like fertility drugs causing multiple births and having women who are past the preffered age of childbaring . Also infant mortality is measured by the number of live births that fail. Here many times labor is induced ay an early stage. It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate not because we are behind.

Infant mortality rate rises in U.S.

Nation's first increase since 1958 surprises federal health officials

By Rob Stein / Washington Post


WASHINGTON — The number of U.S. babies dying shortly after birth has crept up for the first time in more than four decades, federal health officials reported Wednesday.

The cause of the small but disturbing rise remains unclear, but it may be a combination of the surge in older women having babies, the popularity of fertility treatments and, paradoxically, advancements in identifying and saving fetuses in distress, experts said.

Nevertheless, the surprising increase has raised alarm because the infant mortality rate is considered a fundamental measure of a society’s well-being.

“It’s always a matter of concern when an important measure of public health such as infant mortality increases,” said Joyce Martin of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which released the numbers. “It’s so basic. The saving of young lives is important to everyone.”

The increase was particularly unexpected because it comes as a number of other important measures of the nation’s health continued long-term positive trends. The overall U.S. death rate has been dropping, as have the rates from the leading causes of mortality: heart disease, stroke, accidents and cancer. And U.S. life expectancy has reached a new high: 77.4 years.

The United States has long had one of the highest infant mortality rates among developed countries, and the rate had either declined or remained steady every year since 1958. So government scientists were caught off guard when a preliminary analysis of the most recent data showed that the infant mortality rate had inched up 3 percent, climbing from 6.8 deaths per 1,000 live births in 2001 to 7.0 deaths in 2002.

“I have to say, it was a surprise,” said Martin, lead statistician for the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the CDC. “We weren’t expecting it.”

A follow-up analysis confirmed that the increase would hold true in the final numbers. When researchers parsed the data, they found the increase was caused by a jump in deaths in the first week of life among babies who were born with birth defects, were unusually small, or were born to mothers who had complications during their pregnancies, such as high blood pressure or diabetes, Martin said.

Because the number of babies who are being born early has increased in recent years, the findings suggest that trend could be driving the uptick in infant mortality, Martin said.

Nice cut and paste Gawian , so if you ignore things like infant mortality , life expectancy and healthcare then Cuba doesn't have healthcare ??????
So thats a way of saying yes cuba does have good healthcare but we will ignore that and go on about something else entirely

Maybe you should re read it. Theres more to healthcare than just taking care of bodily illnesses.

[English assassin]

It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate (of infant mortality) not because we are behind

Theres more to healthcare than just taking care of bodily illnesses.

OK, this thread has taken leave of its senses, fair enough.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

OK, this thread has taken leave of its senses, fair enough.

So peoples mental state has nothing to do with healthcare. And Im surprised you dont understand my point on infant mortality. If you try to do harder things theres more chances of you failing.

[Ser Clegane]

Becuse of things like fertility drugs causing multiple births and having women who are past the preffered age of childbaring . Also infant mortality is measured by the number of live births that fail. Here many times labor is induced ay an early stage. It is because we are more advanced that we have a slighty higher rate not because we are behind.

Fair point - but it does not really explain why the infant mortality rate is significantly above the rate for most other major Western countries.

I do not think that the resaon you give above is enough to explain these differences (as these are trends you have in other developed nations as well).
However, neither do I believe that it has to do with hospitals being not as good in the US as in e.g., Western european nations - I think when you compare "normal" hospitals (not the top-notch ones) they are pretty much on the same level.

This is slightly OT, but I am genuinely interested to understand the reason why the mortality rate differs so much.

[solypsist]

I'm probably the only person in this thread who has been there (maybe Idaho has been there, I dunno). And yet everyone seems to be more "in the know" about the place than everyone else.

In 1998 I spent 4 months there with an Olympics team on training (I documented them, I didn't train). Felt like parts of Miami. I'm sure there are plenty of run-down areas, but then again, it's those parts that made it feel like Miami - parts of it also felt like parts of Newark. That said, I wouldn't want to live there, but then again I don't want to live in a lot of places (like New Jersey).

Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.

[AggonyKing]

Go live in Cuba for a few years. Oh, and make sure not to bring any money or anything. See how "content" they are.

I lived in Cuba all my childhood and I was pretty happy. You see we make fun of everything, even if our current situation is as bad as it is now, we still laugh about it and make silly jokes.

I live in Los Angeles now, I can say I'm happy living here, but one of the things I miss is what I said up there ^^^

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I lived in Cuba all my childhood and I was pretty happy

Until what age? Were you ever in a hospital in either country. If so which do you think has better ones in general? Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured they could have such glowing healt statistics. Who gathers this information and how about suchthings around the world? Can we believe the statistics coming from Cuba or are they supplied by the Cuban government?

[AggonyKing]

Until what age?13

Were you ever in a hospital in either country. If so which do you think has better ones in general? I was never in a hospital, although I almost had to go once, because of atsma, but never did. Doctors are going to Venezuela. There's really a shortage of medicine. I mean, you got to keep your best friend happy *cough* Hugo *cough*

Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I went back to CUba recently, and all I can say that all the money is going to tourism. Buildings outside Habana are all rundown. After the cat. 5 hurricane, the govt really has done nothing to help those who lost their homes.

I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured they could have such glowing health statistics. Who gathers this information and how about such things around the world? This statistics can be true, but if the Cuban govt. released them, don't believe all that you read from them. In Cuba is basically germ country. It helps create a better immunity against diseases but still more protection will be better. Like now there's a small epidemic of a fever, but yet you don't hear about it

Can we believe the statistics coming from Cuba or are they supplied by the Cuban government?answer in above question ^^^

[Tribesman]

Are those in Cuba modern and well kept or rundown like those that were posted? I must say even I find it hard to belive that if they were as bad as pictured
Oh Gawain , for Gods sake look through that site before you even give any more thought to the pictures that are posted on it .
It provided me with more laughs than any other I have read this week (apart from a neo-nazi one that someone here mentioned where they were discussing the middle-east) . It is so shoddy with its presentation of "facts" and use of photos depicting things that they clearly don't depict that I thought it was a satire , until I read the feedback page where the author goes into racist rants and labels people fascists and Nazis if they dare to disagree with him .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh Gawain , for Gods sake look through that site before you even give any more thought to the pictures that are posted on it .

For Gods sake tribesman I said I find it hard to believe those pictures represent what hospitals are really like there .What seems to be your problem?

[Tribesman]

Just pointing out that it was a completely biased site that had great difficulty in reporting "facts" , nothing at all like the Cuban American Foundation which is reknowned for it unbiased objectivity towards the current regime .
But you are right Gawain you did say
I find it hard to believe those pictures represent what hospitals are really like there .
So sorry ,that must show how blatantly false the majority of that site is .

Now as for Elain .
Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?
Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?
Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?
Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?
Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

I believe Cubans are in a different category. If Merxico really wants to export its people to the US they should form a communist government.

[Tribesman]

If Merxico really wants to export its people to the US they should form a communist government.
I thought they had in the South , how are the peace talks/power sharing going .

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm probably the only person in this thread who has been there (maybe Idaho has been there, I dunno). And yet everyone seems to be more "in the know" about the place than everyone else.

In 1998 I spent 4 months there with an Olympics team on training (I documented them, I didn't train).

Hey, would that be that special Olympics team of recent fame?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I'm probably the only person in this thread who has been there (maybe Idaho has been there, I dunno). And yet everyone seems to be more "in the know" about the place than everyone else.

In 1998 I spent 4 months there with an Olympics team on training (I documented them, I didn't train). Felt like parts of Miami. I'm sure there are plenty of run-down areas, but then again, it's those parts that made it feel like Miami - parts of it also felt like parts of Newark. That said, I wouldn't want to live there, but then again I don't want to live in a lot of places (like New Jersey).

Hah, must have been before it was illegal to go there, huh?

Besides, New Jersey is a great state. Newark a great city. Get over your New Yorker superiority complex, we're much better. Especially in the food department, you don't need to be a millionaire to get a half decent Calzone or Pie with Gabagool in Jersey.

[Redleg]

Now as for Elain .
Firstly should he , in accordance with your countries laws , have been repatriated straight away as he was a "wetfoot" not a "dryfoot" ?

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings. A large percentage of those given such a ticket do not show for their scheduled court date - I wonder why?

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Secondly , would any court in the land have granted custody to a distant relative who happened to be to a convict with a history of alcohol problems and a track record of failing to bring up his own children without them also becoming convicts ?

Immigrantion courts are known for doing some really stupid things.

Thirdly , if he was a Mexican whose mother had drowned in the Rio Grande while arrempting to illegally enter the US would it even have become such an issue ?

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Besides, New Jersey is a great state. Newark a great city. Get over your New Yorker superiority complex, we're much better.

Get real Kaiser. Your just another suburb of the greatest city in the world.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Get real Kaiser. Your just another suburb of the greatest city in the world.

*is eating a Canolli that he got for about $0.01*

Huh?

Nah, you're right. North Jersey is more or less part of New York anyway, but on a budget Alot more cheap, plus I can think of alot of good Italian Food places in Jersey.

Little Italy owns all though. 2nd best Pizza on earth (1st is Benny Tudino's in Hoboken), best bakery (Ferrarra's), best Mobsters (Vinny the Chin, enough said), best festivals (The feats, or the San Generro Feast for all you non-Italians), and the best Italians.

[Tribesman]

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Really , I got it from an anti castro Cuban/American site where they were on about the '94 changes to the INS proceedings which came in after the record 37,000 illegals made the crossing , differentiationg between those that were stopped at sea and were no longer entitled and those who had made it to land who were entitled, hence the wet/dry .
Or are you referring to the usual American derogatory term for Mexican illegal immigrants which features the word "wet" but with a diffent body part added ?

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings.
And in this case the fidings of the INS were

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.
Yeah I can really see it , all the media , all the high brow lawyers , all the vocal politicians , oh and of course the local resident terrorist groups , yep it would really be the same

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

I think your thinking of the term "Wetback" that is as old as the hills and is indeed a very derogatory name for Mexican immigrants.

Main Entry: wet·back
Pronunciation: 'wet-"bak
Function: noun
Etymology: from the practice of wading or swimming the Rio Grande where it forms the U.S.-Mexico border
usually offensive : a Mexican who enters the U.S. illegally

[Tribesman]

I think your thinking of the term "Wetback"
Hmmm... must type faster eh Gawain ...see above

[Redleg]

Oh and you got your "wetfoot" term very much incorrect - its a different one and its normally used in a degrading and inflammatory manner.

Or are you referring to the usual American derogatory term for Mexican illegal immigrants which features the word "wet" but with a diffent body part added ?

That is the term that is batted around the West with some frequency toward the illegal immigrants that come across the border via Mexico - not all of them are Mexican by the way - a good precentage come from other Central and South American Countries.

Actually the way the law is currently written your given a ticket with an appearance date to the nearest local federal court that holds INS hearings.
And in this case the fidings of the INS were

I will let you decide - I already know my decision on that - parential rights mean something regardless of what country the parents are from.

Yes it would - depending if any living relative was available in the United States that knew of the mother's death.
Yeah I can really see it , all the media , all the high brow lawyers , all the vocal politicians , oh and of course the local resident terrorist groups , yep it would really be the same

Minus the high brow lawyers and the local resident terrorist groups (well maybe not - we just call them criminal gangs here in Texas ) and you might just be surprised how much it will be covered in the Regional Area - it would require you to read some local news from the South-West states. Considering Texas is close to 50% Hispanic along with New Mexico, Arizona and California all having as large or larger Hispanic communities such a news story would create lots of interest in this part of the United States.

[Tribesman]

such a news story would create lots of interest in this part of the United States.
There you go , a local issue not a national one .
I will let you decide - I already know my decision on that - parential rights mean something regardless of what country the parents are from.

Thats not what I asked , though we can both agree on the parental rights .
I asked about the INS finding , which also for some strange reason decided that parental rights mean something.

Oh , and was I very much incorrect or correct in my use of derogatory terms ?

a good precentage come from other Central and South American Countries.

I know a lot of Europeans who used that route , and the Phillipines used to be a good one aswell . Whereas Canada was a better route for the overstays .

edit to add "mean something" in the appropriate place