Made-To-Order Heirs

[Kekvit Irae]

Apparently, when you play the Sassanids, if you build a unit of cavalry Immortals (4 turns), you dont get the cavalry unit, but rather a family member (it's still an Immortal unit). You can use this method to flood the enemy with plenty of generals, or use religious tactics (IE: Spy rush in MTW) against them as every one of the "made to order" family members will have the Zorowhatever religious trait.

[Barbarossa82]

Isn't that what happens when you recruit a new bodyguard-class unit for other factions, like the Roman Imperial German Bodyguard? I've never got round to it so I wouldn't know but I thought this was supposed to be a new feature, recruiting generals directly. Don't think they count as family members from the point of view of keeping your faction alive though.

[Prodigal]

If the manuals to be believed, they're not family & so cannot be set up as heirs

[lars573]

The way the trainable generals unit works is that it creates a general who is not part of your family. And can't become part of it either. Other wise they function just like a family member, gaining traits retinue have a religion etc. Plus if you train to many generals body guards they will end up led by a captain instead of a general, don't know what the limit is though.

[Kraxis]

Another reason why it is a good idea to read the manual.

[dismal]

As of now, I'm working on the assumption that paying for a general will displace one I get for free so I don't do it.

Or perhaps there no longer is Man of the Hour/Adoption?

Is there any benefit to this feature other than timing? (e.g., better traits, younger age?)

[magnum]

These player made generals can be adopted/moth'd if your family is currently short of members. My Sassinid campaign I built several of them because I was running short of family members (had about 4 left.) Every time one of them fought in a battle I had a adoption/moth screen popping up for them.

[dismal]

These player made generals can be adopted/moth'd if your family is currently short of members. My Sassinid campaign I built several of them because I was running short of family members (had about 4 left.) Every time one of them fought in a battle I had a adoption/moth screen popping up for them.

Are you saying the manufactured generals got adopted/MOTH?

The question is would captains have gotten MOTH anyway. In RTW if you were low on family members, the game tended to give them to you.

[magnum]

Yes, the made generals got adopted. As to would a captain leading the army have been adopted I don't know. It is most certainly possible as since I had 4 family members and 12 provinces, the game does start giving more adoptions/moth. All I can say is that all of the made generals I had were immediatly either adopted or moth upon their first combat. And it was them as the name on the papers was the same as made generals name. In addition no new unit appeared as it does when you get a moth for a captain.

[Kekvit Irae]

Even if they arent actual family members, the inclusion of the religious traits allows you to zerg rush the enemy with religion, eliminating unrest within one or two turns. The fact that said general also gains things like Superior Cavalry General traits and other neat things, they can be used to dominate the battlefield. One made-to-order general of mine gained enough experience (two gold chevrons) to clear a path through a walled ERE city with 500+ defenders all on his own, using a spy to open the city gates. He won with no casualties.
I believe four turns for build time is a meager price to pay for power.

[Craterus]

It's just a shame they can't become heirs, or leaders.

Is this the same for MotH in BI, surely they can't become Faction Leaders?

Now that quote (something like: Men dislike being led by one who is not of noble blood) actually has relevance..

[Kraxis]

I don't know about rushing with them. They take a good deal of time to train, time that could have been used on more effective means of arms.

And yes, you will get normal adoptions/man of the hour. I was running very low on family members with a giant empire (32 provinces), suddenly all my captainlead armies that won got the 'moth'.

Also notice that these guys are called 'General' wher your normal family members are called just that.

[dismal]

I don't know about rushing with them. They take a good deal of time to train, time that could have been used on more effective means of arms.

That's what I would think as well. That's a lot of time and money to devote to changing a town's religion. Seems you could march in and take the town directly for less.

And yes, you will get normal adoptions/man of the hour. I was running very low on family members with a giant empire (32 provinces), suddenly all my captainlead armies that won got the 'moth'.

Also notice that these guys are called 'General' wher your normal family members are called just that.

So then, it does seem that bought generals more-or-less take the place of generals you'd get for free.

[Kraxis]

Don't know really... I had been training generals to make up for my shortage for a while. But it hadn't been more than 5-6.

[Kekvit Irae]

That's what I would think as well. That's a lot of time and money to devote to changing a town's religion. Seems you could march in and take the town directly for less.

Two words: Religious unrest.
I dont like having to march in to a city only to have it (at worst) rebel in two turns because the religion was way different than mine. And I dont like having to spend five turns just trying to get the garrison and buildings needed just to prevent civil strife. With a zerg rush of generals, you can march in the land, wait a turn while the enemy deals with strife of his own due to your religious conversions, send an assassin in to burn the temple or church to further this action, and then assault next turn, build one garrison unit, and move out and move on. Definately quicker than just marching in and taking over.
You can also use this method to conquer without going to war. Just use assassins (to destroy the happiness buildings and temples), generals, and spies until the city turns rebel, then move in. And thus was born a new player-restricted challenge: winning without ever declaring war.

[Kekvit Irae]

I don't know about rushing with them. They take a good deal of time to train, time that could have been used on more effective means of arms.

They may take a few turns, but anyone who's serious about rushing would never try to build them in a single city. Use multiple cities to do so.

[Kraxis]

They may take a few turns, but anyone who's serious about rushing would never try to build them in a single city. Use multiple cities to do so.

But that is the point... It takes quite a while to get to that level in cities that are close enough to each other. And it is rather expensive.

You would basically be stumping your development of economy, religion and infantry. I don't think it is worth it.

My ERE campaign ended with me being able to train generals in four cities (though the last was taken as the remaining requirement for victory). Constantinople, Antioch, Rome and Carthage. Even if I had wanted to rush generals, I would have been keeping my own armies dry of heavy cavalry, and they were after all far apart.

So it depends it seems.

[Kekvit Irae]

I'd rather be the slow expansionist, concentrating on my cities starting out

[Kraxis]

I wasn't fast either... Got to around 440 or so.

The blasted Western Empire sank two fleets full of elite armies when I sent them to take Carthage. The first one was rather weak and I tried to sneak it along Africa. Didn't work as it was sunk just beofre it was suppoed to unload. THe next one got a powerful fleet and strong escort (other fleets) but the WRE seperated it from the escorts and sank it too. They nearly managed to do the same with the third fleet.
The worst part was that the first two fleets came from Antioch and the last had large sections from it too.

[dismal]

Two words: Religious unrest.
I dont like having to march in to a city only to have it (at worst) rebel in two turns because the religion was way different than mine.

I haven't had this problem so much. But I generally put big cities to the sword, leave up existing order buildings (including the church), set taxes low, and garrison heavily.

You can often tip religion in your favor and start converting with a general or two and border power. (Another trick to tip conversion in your favor: if say you're trying to convert a pagan city to christian, knock down their big pagan temple and rebuild a small one)

In a few turns, when unrest has died down (and particularly if you can get an arena up and some conversion going beforehand), you can usually safely knock down their church and put up yours.