Multi-culturalism

[Duke Malcolm]

We (in Britain, at least) are constantly told that multi-culturalism is a good thing. Now, I would have no problem with that, if only it could explain to me why. Millions, if not thousands of millions of public money is spent on schemes promoting the concept of multi-culturalism (not that this does anything, though, except perhaps make some already liberally-minded people violently anti-racist).
I do not see an advantage in it, since it dilutes our own culture, and makes people feel extraordinarily and unreasonably guilty for the Empire.
I believe, that while keeping some of their own culture, immigrants should generally integrate with the nation that they are moving to, and that the nation should not adapt itself too much for the immigrants.

What do the Orgahs (which seems to be the commonly accepted term for the subjects of TosaInu) think of multi-culturalism?

Some links:

One Scotland

Wikipedia Definition thereof

[TinCow]

Learning someone else's culture allows you to understand that person better. It allows you to better imagine yourself in their shoes and thus to approach problems with that person from a better baseline. This will in turn reduce misunderstandings and generate a more tolerant society. At least, that's my opinion.

[Goofball]

I believe, that while keeping some of their own culture, immigrants should generally integrate with the nation that they are moving to, and that the nation should not adapt itself too much for the immigrants.

That's more or less what multiculturalism is. There's nothing saying that the incumbent culture should have to adapt itself to the new culture; that's just the way the intolerant try to portray multiculturalism to try to turn people against it.

Multiculturalism should be many cultures existing peacefully together and being able to experience the better points of each other's customs, foods, celebrations, philosophies, etc, without necessarily blending together.

But I agree with you to the extent that where aspects of the immigrant culture are unacceptable to the incumbent culture (i.e. Islamic extremists beating their wives or Sikhs carrying bloody great swords around in public), those aspects of the immigrant culture must be left behind.

[Lazul]

Normally I wouldnt touch this subject with a 5 feet stick, atleast not in Sweden, but seeing as im on the org atm, I guess i can give it a shot.
The problem in Sweden concerning multi-culturalism is that "the once in charge" spend so much energy to integrate foriegn culture into our own that the "swedish culture" as a cultural being is fading in the eyes of the people.
Now one thing everyone have to have in mind is that every culture through out history is a mix of lesser cultures and is in constant change allways.

But to focus on what the little man feels about his culture being in change, what he fells aout it. I mean here in Sweden when i was younger and was in the earlier stages of school (public) we had many albanians, serbs etc in our classes. At first, nobody had any problem with it, I personally thought it would be fun to get to know someone who wasnt swedish by birth.

BUT, since politicians on all levels tend to be retards they had to think about what they could do "fix the racial issue" bla bla bla. The amount of flags being waved around diminished, then we were not allowed to sing our national anthem in school, not even during graduation.
Im not even a nationalist, atleast I dont call myself that, but I still felt hurt by the changes and so on.

I think, that if politicans dont interfer, dont make cultural borders and national identity a big issue, the people wont make it a big issue either. If the people are left alone to deal with cultural issues the world will take a more "regional" shape instead of "national". in other words, regional identity (seeing myself as a part of Halland or Halmstad first, Sweden second) will be more important then national.

[solypsist]

why multiculturalism is important: since when is knowing less a favorable option?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Multiculturalism, as supported by the left in America is bad. It is not about 'knowing more' or any other such nonsense. It is used as yet another oppurtunity to destroy American culture as some bad evil monster and portraying the immigrant's culture as perfect. We have to change anything that might be offensive. They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Crazed Rabbit

[TinCow]

It is used as yet another oppurtunity to destroy American culture as some bad evil monster and portraying the immigrant's culture as perfect.

I understand what you are saying, but American culture in particular IS immigrant culture. Nearly all of our most popular foods are slightly altered versions of other nations' traditions. Our art, our vehicles, our architecture and even our language are heavily based upon foreign influence. I think this domestic dilution of the native culture can certainly be a problem in places like Sweden, France and Italy. However I think the US is very different in these regards and can't quite be discussed in the same way.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I understand what you are saying, but American culture in particular IS immigrant culture. Nearly all of our most popular foods are slightly altered versions of other nations' traditions. Our art, our vehicles, our architecture and even our language are heavily based upon foreign influence. I think this domestic dilution of the native culture can certainly be a problem in places like Sweden, France and Italy. However I think the US is very different in these regards and can't quite be discussed in the same way.

Right you are. And I'd love other immigrants adding to the national culture we have here. But multiculturalism isn't that. The leftists want american culture to fold in completely whenever its different from an immigrant culture.

Crazed Rabbit

[English assassin]

Multiculturalism as it has been practiced in the UK is not a good thing IMHO. We do need a bedrock of shared common history and values, which, by all means, can then be overlaid with engaging cultural differences. (Yes yes, I know, its the ethnic restaurant school of multiculturalism). But not teaching British history or literature in favour of teaching some sort of global mish mash is a mistake: its exactly the immigrant populations who most need that sort of teaching. If someone says (as they do) isn't London terrible and violent, if you have read Dickens or studied the victorians you will know that the answer is "not any more its not." No disrespect to African history or what have you but it doesn't give you that sort of useful background to life in the UK.

And permitting immigrant communities to, say, keep their wives and daughters in subjugation, not learning English, not working and so on, that was not a very good idea.

[solypsist]

the irony of this statement against multiculturalism is delicious, indeed.

They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

the irony of this statement against multiculturalism is delicious, indeed.

They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Exactly. That's not multiculturalism.

CR, who exactly are the "they" that you are referring to?

[Rodion Romanovich]

I wrote most of what I think here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56228

Multi-culturalism in that we learn to eat kebab and sushi if we want to is no problem IMO. Neither is exchange of philosophical ideas and sharing each others traditions (if they have good parties ). The main problem is the laws of the country, which are most likely going to be affected by foreign cultures. The law is very critical to citizens, and if another group becomes majority the original inhabitants will lose their law. Especially if the foreign cultures reproduce faster, because many of them are at home all they because they have no jobs because there's a shortage of jobs as it is and they're disfavored by the market because without proper integration they never learn the local language and therefore can't handle the communication required for a most jobs. If the cultural/religious groups that grow most are cultural/religious groups who are fundamentalistic, non-tolerant and/or have a legal system which is very different from yours, as well as have shown they haven't been able to or didn't care about overthrowing dictators in their home countries, the old inhabitants can say goodbye to their country as it's been conquered, and they can expect foreign laws, perhaps including non-tolerance, fundamentalism and so on.

An individual foreigner is no threat, and shouldn't IMO be subject to prejudice of any kind. But a huge group of foreigners becoming a majority is a threat to the constitution, law and culture, and the tolerance should therefore be restricted. There's only one part of tolerance that really needs to be restricted, and it's to, by any just means available, make sure the foreign cultural, religious and other groups never become a majority or large enough minority to threaten the constitution.

To give them no right to vote is a short-sighted solution, it would never work. To repel all and persecute all converts is also a short-sighted solution. But to simply have birth control with every foreigner being forbidden to have more children than what's average for the local population, and send back refugees when their home countries have calmed down, and avoid immigration of non-refugees as much as possible, this guarantee would exist, removing the threat, and making it possible to live multiculturally without conflicts or fear.

I believe the greatest multiculturalism and acceptance is to respect that the other countries keep the law, culture and constitution they want, while they respect the law, culture and constitution we have. Often important political opinions ARE tied to culture and religion, and this is why in order to have a democracy that gives as many as possible what they want, one mustn't mix religious and cultural groups too much.

Immigration of the kind that's taking place into European countries is not good for anyone in the long run, except maybe for the few immigrants that get to the European countries.
1. if they're educated, they're letting down their own people by leaving them, and making their own countries fall apart more.
2. if they're against a dictatorship regime in their home countries, then they should stay and overthrow it like Europeans have overthrown dictatorship in the 19th century.
3. if they're in need and immigrate in order to get help, they're killing a thousand others in need of help. No matter how it's hidden behind fine words, immigration and aid is dependent on money, and ONE immigrant costs as much as helping THOUSANDS that stay in their own countries. Those that aren't real refugees but only pretending to be in flight and hiding should be ashamed to cause the death of so many others by their immigration.
4. the politicians don't do a thing to integrate the refugees. We're talking about small children with veteran syndromes, people who can't speak the language of the country they came to, and people who don't get any jobs and easily end up in criminality.

The immigration supported by the leaders of states in Europe and America is supported for the reasons that the leaders want:
1. internal rivalry between culture, so that attention is drawn from their ruling.
2. they want cheap workers from poor countries to come and by competition lower the wages in order to strengthen the power of the company leaders.

Large-scale immigration is not about helping people, it's about hidden political agendas. That's why all that are openly against immigration are harassed and threatened by fear and very few good arguments, rather than a fair debate. Usually, whoever is against uncontrolled immigration is called a racist, despite being less racist than any of the politicans who approve of immigration, who are living in isolated rich-man-ghettos and never see a foreigner. The non-official version of these politicians who hug immigrants' children on photoes are fierce racists who immediately veto attempts to build houses for immigrants anywhere near their own houses, because they don't want to see any other people than people of their own nationality. And this stupidity is, as I mentioned here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56228, the strongest force ever for causing racism and intolerance in the future, which is what I personally want to avoid, no matter who would become the victim of it if it did appear.

[Fragony]

Multiculture, if it worked, fine, eventually. Multicult; bleh.

[Papewaio]

Surprise I am for multiculturalism.

I am against mono-culturalism. That is practiced by those who believe in only their culture and wish to force others to partake of their culture.

A quick cross-section of mono-culturalists.
Cults, KKK, Aryan Nation, Nazis, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Communism.

I also would add that most problems caused in immigration are lack of understanding (which leads to fear and anger) and the inability to communicate. These are related issues. I think that it is up to the immigrants to learn how to communicate, it is also up to the society to help them learn. If you truly accept an immigrant you cannot leave them to fend for themselves. If they are to become a viable upstanding member of society you need to show interest in them, an understanding of their predicament and the oppourtunity for them to learn and understand you too.

So I do think at school, children need to be taught the fundamentals maths, science, the local language, some history and current social studies, sports of the country and foods too. Adult immigrants can find it very difficult to learn, I am not so worried about that portion. As long as we integrate the children and teach them respect for themselves, their parents culture, their new society and other cultures then we are heading in a positive future driven direction.

On the flip side, someones culture should never be used as a defence for a crime. If anything someone who comes from a criminal causing background should get a heavier sentence. This would limit their own chance of creating a family and hence limit them continuing the cycle.

In short I think it is lack of knowledge and self esteem that causes most racism. The key to that is teaching and mixing.

[Soulforged]

A quick cross-section of mono-culturalists.
....Communism.

Sorry but as you know now I couldn't let this pass. What in the hell has to do communism with culture?
Some people confuse communism with political theory, but now it's with cultural models?

[Papewaio]

Simple you either join the communists of go to a gulag/die in the killing fields/mines/leave the country.

Communists only accept communists.

[Lazul]

well communism as an idea has little or nothing to do with culture. The problem is that the communistic experiments that has taken place the past century went so totaly wrong and 'they' forced their own, made up, culture on the people.
I doubt Marx would have like the idea of cultures being forced upon the people.

[Fragony]

I am against mono-culturalism. That is practiced by those who believe in only their culture and wish to force others to partake of their culture.

Sounds like the multiculture just got mono.

In short I think it is lack of knowledge and self esteem that causes most racism. The key to that is teaching and mixing.

To achieve what? You think you are building but you are really destroying. Racism exists because people are racist, nothing more nothing less. All the multiculti priests in the world cannot change human nature, people will always flock around their own kind.

[Lazul]

[B]To achieve what? You think you are building but you are really destroying. Racism exists because people are racist, nothing more nothing less. All the multiculti priests in the world cannot change human nature, people will always flock around their own kind.

...to achive a lesser amount of people being murdered due to their race?

What are the anti-racists destroying that is so valueble to keep?

[Rodion Romanovich]

I say this again: most racists aren't racists but scared of laws typical to foreign cultures taking over in their countries because the foreign culture becomes a majority. It's a valid threat they see, and the so called anti-racists who are against adding guarantees in the system that the locals will remain majority reinforce this racism, and create a future scenario where either the former local population or the immigrants will most likely become victims of oppression and real racism. In short - anti-racists create the racism and oppression of minorities they claim to be against. I'm against oppression of minorities and against minorities, but looking at history I've seen that there must be some type of guarantee that the locals will remain majority in order to avoid a such racial oppression and violence scenario.

[Fragony]

...to achive a lesser amount of people being murdered due to their race?

What are the anti-racists destroying that is so valueble to keep?

Anti racists mistake love and hate, there is nothing wrong with loving your own culture. There are really so many reasons to do so, as doing so is part of it. BUT, this worshipping has taken an ugly turn, as loving your own(european) culture is quite inpopular nowadays. If that is a false statement we could as well all go hindu/muslim/satanist; where exactly aren't we a culture of our own? And why should we change really, why are they comming here then. If they do, be like us, or try living without us. Both are fine witth me as long as nobody robs my granny.

[Papewaio]

I am against mono-culturalism. That is practiced by those who believe in only their culture and wish to force others to partake of their culture.

Sounds like the multiculture just got mono.

How is it mono? If you read the whole post you would see that it talks about more the one culture.

As long as we integrate the children and teach them respect for themselves, their parents culture, their new society and other cultures then we are heading in a positive future driven direction.

So nothing about not liking your own culture. About learning respect for who you are and where you are. And learning to respect other cultures.

In short I think it is lack of knowledge and self esteem that causes most racism. The key to that is teaching and mixing.

To achieve what? You think you are building but you are really destroying. Racism exists because people are racist, nothing more nothing less. All the multiculti priests in the world cannot change human nature, people will always flock around their own kind.

To achieve a country that is stronger, more vibrant, peaceful, harmonised.

I suggest you come to Australia, you will see people intermixing, people staying with their own kind, people intergrating, people chosing not to intergrate. They certainly do not always flock with their own kind.

If we all did flock with our own kind we would end up with the same genetic problems as incest... this is what happened with the European Royal families limiting themselves to only other Royals. The Russians ended up with rare genetic defects.

[Fragony]

.I suggest you come to Australia, you will see people intermixing, people staying with their own kind, people intergrating, people chosing not to intergrate. They certainly do not always flock with their own kind.

I suggest you come to the Netherlands, and see how it works when it gets a bit crowded. In Australia I expect people to have a bit more personal space, did you know there live more people here then in the entire continent of australia? It is a pressure boiler I tell you, living together while leaving eachother alone fine, but multiculture isn't tested before people actually have to sit on eachother lap. Let me tell you that it is a disaster. You have a rather attractive asian girlfriend, but that is just the multiculture within your own walls. Walk outside and it gets ugly.

[yesdachi]

I am against mono-culturalism. That is practiced by those who believe in only their culture and wish to force others to partake of their culture.

Sounds vaguely similar to the practices of most religions I can think of.