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Thread: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

  1. #1
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    A few points about the Venezuelan leader, not the immigrant unionist.

    Somebody should create a new international award for economic incompetence -- the Lebon Prize, or Nobel spelled backward -- and give it to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
    Whatever you think of his politics -- and he has some redeeming points, such as having given a voice to the large masses of poverty-ridden Venezuelans who were largely ignored by a corrupt political class -- Chavez can claim the dubious achievement of having increaseed Venezuela's poverty despite the country's biggest oil boom in recent decades.
    In March, Venezuela's official National Institute of Statistics (INE) had reported that poverty rose by 10 percent during Chavez' first five years in office. Several international institutions have reported equally negative figures.
    The INE said that poverty in Venezuela rose from 43 percent to 53percent between 1999 and December 2004. Subsequently, Chavez lashed out against the INE, saying that it reflected the international "neoliberal" standards of measuring poverty, which he said were not suitable for a "socialist" country such as Venezuela.
    But now, other international organizations -- including the United Nations and the World Bank -- are painting a similar picture of Venezuela's social involution. As strange as it sounds, they say poverty is rising in Venezuela despite the fact that world oil prices have soared from $8 a barrel when Chavez took office in 1999 to about $62 a barrel today. That's no minor detail; 80% of Venezuela's foreign income comes from its oil exports....
    So why is it then that Chavez is so popular in Venezuela, you may be asking. The latest polls show that the leftist president is likely to win, hands down, upcoming legislative elections and the 2006 presidential election.
    Many opposition leaders say the polls are controlled by the government, or reflect widespread intimidation, and that Chavez won the 2004 referendum thanks to fraud. But while the rules were bent to favor Chavez, there is no smoking gun yet to contradict Carter Center and Organization of American States election observer's assessment that Chavez won the actual vote.
    Chavez may still be ahead in opinion polls because, with a nearly eight-fold increase in his country's oil income, he is giving out tons of money in monthly cash bonuses for the poor, and in subsidized food for the working class through the government's popular Mercal supermarkets.
    Sure his fiery anti-capitalist rhetoric has caused massive capital flight, the closing of more than 7,000 private companies, hundreds of thousands of layoffs and higher poverty rates.
    But it would be a mistake to conclude that growing poverty will hurt Chavez politically. On the contrary, the more the poor depend on his financial largess, the more political control he has over them. As long as our potential "Lebon Prize" winner is awash in petrodollars, poverty may even play in his favor.

    -- Andres Oppenheimer, Latin America Correspondent for the Miami Herald
    Food for thought isn't it.

    Seamus
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 10-12-2005 at 14:58.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    German Enthusiast Member Alexanderofmacedon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    LOL


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    Bringing down the vulgaroisie Member King Henry V's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    I wonder where JAG? You are being very mean to his beloved!
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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    Food for thought isn't it.

    Seamus
    Chavez is right. The INE does not quantify and measure the benefits the poor receive in the form of subsidized food prices, free education programs, health benefits through neighborhood clinics, etcetera, because that does not fit their neoliberal criteria. Chavez' government has virtually wiped out illiteracy, for instance, yet this is not reflected in the INE poverty statistics either.
    So why is it then that Chavez is so popular in Venezuela, you may be asking.
    QED.

    And who caused the Venezuelan destabilisation of 2002-2003 with its fascist coup plots, its oil industry sabotage and a management lockout that cost 650.000 Venezuelans their jobs and increased poverty substantially, you may be asking? That would be the U.S.-supported gorilla opposition.

    Chavez rocks.
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    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
    Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

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    German Enthusiast Member Alexanderofmacedon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    I love this guy!

    Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?


  8. #8
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
    Oh, forget Gawain, this is about Chavez and Venezuela. I have looked up the INE figures and they show that the entire rise inpoverty took place during the coup and destabilisation period of 2002-2003. GDP went down 25% over that period.

    1999 42.80
    2000 41.60
    2001 39.10
    2002 41.50
    2003 54.00
    2004 53.10

    Critics fail to acknowledge that Chavez put an end to a thirty year period of constant economic decline in Venezuela. During 1970-1998, Venezuelan per capita income fell by 35 percent. The country was the worst economic performer in the world. With its present growth of 17,8% (over 2004) it is the world's best performer after China. You think Venezuelans would want the old regime to come back and the American-backed oil bosses to take over again? I don't think so, gentlemen.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Wow AdrianII, that's some amazing figures. I don't see how anybody couldn't like the guy now.

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    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Really, I thought it came from the hatred expressed by conservatives like you?
    Hatred of what?



    Whats he gonna do when he has driven all the capitaists out of the country? The well will run dry someday and it wont be long. Its a great short term fix .
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    You guys ever read Atlas Shrugged?

    Crazed Rabbit
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  12. #12
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Chavez is right. The INE does not quantify and measure the benefits the poor receive in the form of subsidized food prices, free education programs, health benefits through neighborhood clinics, etcetera, because that does not fit their neoliberal criteria. Chavez' government has virtually wiped out illiteracy, for instance, yet this is not reflected in the INE poverty statistics either.
    True as to the INE, but the UN Human Development Report (emph's: life expectancy, literacy, per capita income) point dropped Venezuala 7 places from 68th to 75th in the World. UN HDR is not a neo-lib rater.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    And who caused the Venezuelan destabilisation of 2002-2003 with its fascist coup plots, its oil industry sabotage and a management lockout that cost 650.000 Venezuelans their jobs and increased poverty substantially, you may be asking? That would be the U.S.-supported gorilla opposition.

    Chavez rocks.
    I assume you mean "guerilla" opposition, since the U.S. does not fund Silverbacks or any other great ape liberation effort.

    You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you? Other than the loose connection of the US would like to see anything that took Chavez down relatively peacefully, what's the link?

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Critics fail to acknowledge that Chavez put an end to a thirty year period of constant economic decline in Venezuela. During 1970-1998, Venezuelan per capita income fell by 35 percent. The country was the worst economic performer in the world. With its present growth of 17,8% (over 2004) it is the world's best performer after China. You think Venezuelans would want the old regime to come back and the American-backed oil bosses to take over again? I don't think so, gentlemen.
    However, with the growth in poverty paralleling this oil-driven surge in revenue, does this not imply a widening gap between haves and have-nots (an issue that has always vexed South American success), or has the vast bulk of this revenue increase simply gone directly into government handouts without building physical infrastructure etc.

    I mislike Chavez, but I don't have a lot of details on infrastructure improvements etc., so I am skeptical but acknowledge I might be missing some data. However, a better social safety net does NOT translate into higher prosperity or long term advancements in standard of living; those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.

    What you mean like universal education , improving trade and logistic infrastructure as well as medical imrovements , and opportunity to own land and launch business ventures .
    Hmmmm... I think thats all covered , now all they need to do is keep them gorillas out of it .
    You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you?
    That wouldn't be the lockout where the gorillas attacked government convoys trying to move stuff from the locked out docks would it ?
    No there is no link ... move along ....nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt

  15. #15
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    those are the products of genuine improvements in education, infrastructure, and opportunity.

    What you mean like universal education , improving trade and logistic infrastructure as well as medical imrovements , and opportunity to own land and launch business ventures .
    Hmmmm... I think thats all covered , now all they need to do is keep them gorillas out of it .
    You aren't linking the guerilla opposition and the management lockout are you?
    That wouldn't be the lockout where the gorillas attacked government convoys trying to move stuff from the locked out docks would it ?
    No there is no link ... move along ....nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt
    ...Well, the education component does seem to have improved, and medical coverage probably as well. I didn't see anything presented on trade/logistic improvements, and Chavez' anti-capitalist stance seems to have sent off the capital necessary for business ventures -- even if ownership opportunity is improved (which is probably the case from what I have read of the previous governments).

    As to the guerilla stuff, do you have a source? As I noted, I did not feel perfectly backgrounded on that part.

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    (..) nothing to see here....honestly nothing ... really .... they were acting alone ....just as they were when they backed the managers coup attempt
    Maybe we should enlighten the audience, Mr President, as to the fact that the U.S. was the only country in the world to immediately recognize the new “consultative junta”, nominally headed by the chief of the country’s big business association, Pedro Carmona Estanga -- even though the coup had not been fully carried through and finally backfired due to popular intervention. I clearly remember Ari Fleischer facing the White House press corps with his foot set squarely in his mouth. Details of U.S. involvement began to leak soon afterwards.
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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    As to the guerilla stuff, do you have a source? As I noted, I did not feel perfectly backgrounded on that part.

    Seamus
    'Gorilla' is a term commonly used for military dictators in Latin America.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Details of U.S. involvement began to leak soon afterwards.
    Hmmm. They slam a number of the folks involved; some of whom probably did play a role in Iran/Contra. Doesn't really show any proof that the US was aiding and abetting -- though our willingness to recognize and support the new government suggests that the USA was, at least, willing to profit from the coup as much as possible (certainly not a friendly stance toward the current elected leader of Ven.).

    Seamus
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  19. #19

    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Maybe we should enlighten the audience, Mr President
    Nah why bother , though it would be tempting to find a link to Colin Powells address when he was using TV footage of the management forces firing into a very large crowd of Anti -coup protesters and claiming it was chavez supporters firing at peaceful management supporters , thats really funny , at least they could have photoshopped the protesters placards or something before they broadcast it .

    What I never unerstood , if Hugo is such an evil dictator then why was that woman who was on the podium at the "inaugeration" of the management rebels allowed to recieve the millions of US dollars to fund her recall campaign instead of being thrown in prison .
    Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults , well he is a politician for a start , but why the fixation with him and the endless efforts to vilify him ?
    Edit to add ...Just read the link Adrian , isn't Reich an appropriate name for a right wing nutter .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 10-12-2005 at 20:49.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Now don't get me wrong , Chavez has some serious faults , well he is a politician for a start
    For starters he is a smug demagogue with a ridiculous personal tv-show, but he is a lot better than the previous jerks.
    (..) but why the fixation with him and the endless efforts to vilify him?
    How un-Tribesmanlike of you to ask such a naive question, Mr President. Oil + socialism is a powerful elixir, particularly in Latin America where people like Lula and Chavez are breaching the neoliberal consensus that has reigned supreme since the 1980's.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    How un-Tribesmanlike of you to ask such a naive question, Mr President.
    Hey .....easy there Adrian , I meant ordinary peoples willingness to swallow all the crap without even a seconds thought .
    Ah I must have disconnected my "natural born cynic" circuit . I will fix it shortly

  22. #22
    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    http://www.newstatesman.com/200510100012

    Forgive me for pasting it as you can't read it otherwise - you have to have a log in, which costs money. As this is my first post here for a long time, surely I can have some leeway.

    [article removed by Ser Clegane]

    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.

    *goes off into the night again*

    EDIT by Ser Clegane: Sorry, I had to remove the article - as you need a log in to read it, posting it here would obviously be a violation of copyright.
    I might note though that the website allows free reading of one article per day - so if anybody is interested in the article, just click on JAG's link (but make sure to read the article the first time you go there - otherwise you will have to wait another day to access it again).
    Thanks for your understanding
    Last edited by Ser Clegane; 10-13-2005 at 10:16.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    *Strike has a heart attack* The day Venzula owns the USA I will quit eating meat
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    'Gorilla' is a term commonly used for military dictators in Latin America.
    By who?
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    Member Member Azi Tohak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    So let me get this straight... the hatred of the US runs so rampant that not only is China being trumpeted to put us in our place, but a President from Venezuela is also supposed to do it? By establishing a welfare state and trying to set up the mythical (just as mythical as Muslim unity for example) Latin American power block?

    This is delightful! Reading other people's fantasies is always insightful.

    Azi
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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by JAG
    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.


    I'm sorry, did you just proclaim that Hugo Chavez was a great man? Did you mean great as in 'Hugo's a mighty large fellow whose great height and girth defies the laws of nature great' or did you mean that he is truly one of the great dictators and megalomaniacal a$$holes of the 21st century? It's one thing to be contrary for the sake of being contrary after a conservative voices their opinion here in the Org but that is just nutty.
    Last edited by Spino; 10-13-2005 at 20:18.
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    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)

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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    I must say he sounds like a true Democrat. Thats how they keep winning 90% of the black vote.
    I like the other 10% of the black vote, we need to make it 100% though.

    Why do you hate Freedom?
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Welcome back JAG!

    You might want to check this out:
    http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?con...s/200505070444

    So, although poverty has increased to 54% (and is staying high), although foreign investment-what it takes to build an economy when half your nation is in poverty-and the amount of industrial firms, has dropped 50%, although unemployment has increased nigh on 50%, although per-capita income has dropped, inflation has increased, and the public debt has another $20 billion, he's a 'great man'?

    Soon, this is going to crash. And it will crash faster and harder if the price of oil drops.

    I can only assume your definition of great man refers to girth.

    After all, if he's such a great man, why has he packed the courts to agree with him, outlawed protesting, outlawed criticism of the government, and revoked the presumption of innocence?

    Why would such a great man need to surpress all dissent and throw opposition members in jail? Can any of his supporters explain this?

    Crazed Rabbit
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  29. #29
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    All the best socialist societies put their boot down on the neck of freedom!


  30. #30
    Member Member Del Arroyo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chavez: Think Oil, Not Lettuce

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Welcome back JAG!

    You might want to check this out:
    http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?con...s/200505070444

    I can only assume your definition of great man refers to girth.
    This is basically what I've been saying. The fundamentals just seem weak to me. Chavez has crushed all opposition and faces no threat to his continued rule-- that's one solid point. If he can use oil revenues to build a solid educational system and improve medical care, the other aspects may begin to catch up... or may not... and it's an IF either way...

    DA

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