1.3 RTW Comments

**Jambo** · 10-17-2005, 14:23

Yeah, for me fatigue is one of those tough choices as to whether I play with it on or off. Like Puzz I've had some battles against the AI in which I was expecting a real tough fight and in fact turned out to be slaughters.

In one such battle (VH/H) my relatively large garrison defence of 1000 troops killed >5500 (from 3 AI armies) while defending a siege assault from a horde faction. The one army with the siege equipment breached my defences with siege towers, rams and sap points, and so after dealing with the initial army I decided to retreat to the centre square to face the rest...

While I relaxed and regained unit stamina in the city plaza, the other 2 AI armies charged all the way round my wall defences to enter through the breaches. By the time the chosen swordsmen, horde spearmen, etc, reached my plaza they were tired or exhausted and a simple charge from the 3 family members I had in the plaza routed the lot. Several thousand troops routing from the city plaza with 3 family members in pursuit = mass slaughter.

Without fatigue on I would have definitely lost as there's no doubt the charging of the AI reinforcements round the walls was their doom.

**screwtype** · 10-17-2005, 15:13

I've never noticed the AI getting fatigued before. How do you know they are fatigued? Is it just your assumption?

Personally I see the opposite problem occurring. The AI just doesn't hurry fast enough, especially when it's sending reinforcements. I've lost count of the number of AI cities I end up taking uncontested because a reinforcing AI army comes to the city's "rescue" and the defenders then sally forth. Because either the reinforcements or the sallying army or both advance toward you so slowly, it's really easy to destroy one army and then the other in turn, leaving the city undefended. I see this as quite a major problem for the AI, it makes taking cities absurdly easy.

**Red Harvest** · 10-17-2005, 18:06

Originally Posted by screwtype

I've never noticed the AI getting fatigued before. How do you know they are fatigued? Is it just your assumption?

Personally I see the opposite problem occurring. The AI just doesn't hurry fast enough, especially when it's sending reinforcements. I've lost count of the number of AI cities I end up taking uncontested because a reinforcing AI army comes to the city's "rescue" and the defenders then sally forth. Because either the reinforcements or the sallying army or both advance toward you so slowly, it's really easy to destroy one army and then the other in turn, leaving the city undefended. I see this as quite a major problem for the AI, it makes taking cities absurdly easy.

Fatigue is a big factor for the AI. When it has multiple armies, it doesn't wait to connect its forces and attack as a combined army. This leads to defeat in detail of fatigued clumps. Fatigue saps morale and it reduces kill rate as well as running speed. So when the fatigued army reaches the player's line it ends up routing easily. (Many units don't even reach the line.) My units behave the same way if I treat them like that.

**Red Harvest** · 10-17-2005, 18:21

14. Marius' Reforms now occur early again. I had them happen in 242. (I would have rathered that CA would have added a second starting period and map to the RTW campaign as part of BI.)

**screwtype** · 10-18-2005, 04:58

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Fatigue is a big factor for the AI. When it has multiple armies, it doesn't wait to connect its forces and attack as a combined army. This leads to defeat in detail of fatigued clumps. Fatigue saps morale and it reduces kill rate as well as running speed. So when the fatigued army reaches the player's line it ends up routing easily. (Many units don't even reach the line.) My units behave the same way if I treat them like that.

Okay, but the problem is not just fatigue, it's lack of coordination between the AI armies. They need to start closer together or something. These sally battles are really anticlimactic.

**Puzz3D** · 10-17-2005, 18:31

Originally Posted by screwtype

I've never noticed the AI getting fatigued before. How do you know they are fatigued? Is it just your assumption?

When the enemy units get close, you can see their fatigue condition with a mouseover.

Originally Posted by screwtype

Personally I see the opposite problem occurring. The AI just doesn't hurry fast enough, especially when it's sending reinforcements.

That's another problem I've seen in every battle where the AI has two or more armies. The AI army which is close to you doesn't wait for the other army unless they are very weak. The AI seems to be designed to charge even with somewhat weaker units. This might be good in certain tactical situations, but it's bad in situations where the AI has reinforcements coming up. I think this may also be what's prompting the AI to make the piecemeal attacks with its stronger units. Sallies are particularly bad because the AI units come out of the gate one at a time.

I may do what Jambo suggesed and turn off fatigue to help the AI. This will actually just bring the AI's units onto an equal footing with my units in erms of fatigue since fatigue is never an issue for my units because I play with no timer and can rest as much as necessary.

**screwtype** · 10-18-2005, 05:07

Originally Posted by Puzz3D

I may do what Jambo suggesed and turn off fatigue to help the AI. This will actually just bring the AI's units onto an equal footing with my units in erms of fatigue since fatigue is never an issue for my units because I play with no timer and can rest as much as necessary.

Yes, it's true that fatigue is not much of an issue for your own units. It's not hard to manage them until they are fresh. Heck, even when they are "exhausted" they still seem to perform pretty well at times.

I didn't realize fatigue was such an issue for the AI. Maybe I'll try turning off fatigue too, although I'm reluctant to do so, because fatigue should make the game more challenging, not less. But from what you are saying, this looks like another design flaw.