Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 87

Thread: blame hitler?

  1. #1

    Default blame hitler?

    can hitler be blamed for wwII's 50 million or so deaths?also how did he spend his last days?i just saw the movie Downfall,i liked it but im not sure if its correct,although it seems to be.if anyone else has seen the movie,where the kids killed goerring's?
    VAE VICTUS-PaNtOcRaToR
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomi says
    Honour is that which preserves the dignity of the human spirit.
    It’s how you treat people, that makes you an honourable person.
    Not how many battles you win.
    The glory of your victories will soon be forgotten.
    But the kindness and respect you show for others, will not.
    So is there really any honour in Total War games?
    No.
    But there is in some of it’s players…

  2. #2
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Searching for the ORG's lost honor
    Posts
    4,657

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
    can hitler be blamed for wwII's 50 million or so deaths?
    Not really, he was the primary, but there were other major characters that had a major hand in it as the aggressors. You can't blame Hitler for the actions of wartime Japan. Stalin killed many millions on this own (and of his own) during the same time frame. Don't confuse me as an apologist for Hitler though.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  3. #3
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Central Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    12,980

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    I haven't seen the movie, but if the children being killed was in the Bunker at the very end, then they would be Goebbel's I believe.

    As is almost always the case with your threads VV, this one is loaded with potential for a rather emotional discussion. Let's keep level heads about us folks.
    This space intentionally left blank

  4. #4

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Of course Hitler can't be blamed. Afterall, the allies could've just surrendered to der dritten reich and no casualties would have occured.

    btw, is Downfall = Der Untergang?

    Im going to see it today, just borrowed it
    Common Unreflected Drinking Only Smartens

  5. #5
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Frederiksberg, Denmark
    Posts
    7,129

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    That's it...

    It is quite accurate, or as accurate as we can determine it to be. The basis for the movie was the diary and interviews of the secretary (the girl that gets hired in 42), and her statements fit very well with what Speer and other had to say about the situation.

    I have nothing to add about Hitler's fault as Red has said it. It would be like Bomber Harris was at fault for the Americans firebombing Tokyo and other big cities. The principle was the same but it wasn't Harris that did it.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  6. #6
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    the holy(?) land
    Posts
    1,207

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    [QUOTE=Gregoshi]I haven't seen the movie, but if the children being killed was in the Bunker at the very end, then they would be Goebbel's I believe.

    Indeed .

    this one is loaded with potential for a rather emotional discussion.

    Indeed , but let us leave emotions out , so Hitlar was responsible for the death of only 42,854,957.25 people or 16.833 people , what's that make him ? A saint ? No emotions , just numbers .
    Belive me , I have tried , for years , to understand the man , but what's the use ?
    Btw , to answer VEA VICTUS's question , Hitler was not responsible for the death of (20 , 30 , 40 , 50 or 60) millions , it was he , his party , his army , a big part of his nation , and so many collaborators .
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  7. #7

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Der Untergang is the best bunker movie Ive seen by far. The events are as accurate as can be determined from the information about that time - besides a few minor side stories & dramatization that come with every movie.

  8. #8
    Magister Vitae Senior Member Kraxis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Frederiksberg, Denmark
    Posts
    7,129

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJager
    Der Untergang is the best bunker movie Ive seen by far. The events are as accurate as can be determined from the information about that time - besides a few minor side stories & dramatization that come with every movie.
    Indeed... The story about the boy is simply great. A success HJ that is in the lineup for Hitler's last appearance (you know the one where he gives a boy a friendly little slap on the cheek) to the eventual demise of his beliefs. It was so damn fitting.
    You may not care about war, but war cares about you!


  9. #9
    Lesbian Rebel Member Mikeus Caesar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Ostrayliah
    Posts
    3,590

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    With relation to the film Downfall, i do believe that is the most accurate story we'll ever get, as i think it's from one of Hitler's personal assistants, someone with a name like Heinz, something like that, who was there right up till Hitler went off and shot himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranika
    I'm being assailed by a mental midget of ironically epic proportions. Quick as frozen molasses, this one. Sharp as a melted marble. It's disturbing. I've had conversations with a braying mule with more coherence.


  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Escaped from the pagodas
    Posts
    6,606

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Just saw the 3h TV cut on Wedbesday/Thursday - very good indeed ... and disturbing

  11. #11
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    Indeed , but let us leave emotions out , so Hitlar was responsible for the death of only 42,854,957.25 people or 16.833 people , what's that make him ? A saint ? No emotions , just numbers .
    Belive me , I have tried , for years , to understand the man , but what's the use ?
    Btw , to answer VEA VICTUS's question , Hitler was not responsible for the death of (20 , 30 , 40 , 50 or 60) millions , it was he , his party , his army , a big part of his nation , and so many collaborators .
    Correct. Hitler is in no way directly responsible for the war or those casualties. He wasn't even directly involved in the Holocaust(not even sure if he fully aproved of it). Let's not forget that this was a whole government that had members that were responsible for different things. Party line was not invented by Hitler, there were racist parties that wanted war before him in Germany, and there were Aryan superiority theories that were popular before hitler as well. Hitler was the leader not because he was the most extremist of all the potentials but because he had the most powerful persona and was impressive at speaches, both qualities are irrespective to any extremety in evil.
    Last edited by Byzantine Prince; 10-21-2005 at 23:58.

  12. #12
    |LGA.3rd|General Clausewitz Member Kaiser of Arabia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Munich...I wish...
    Posts
    4,788

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregoshi
    I haven't seen the movie, but if the children being killed was in the Bunker at the very end, then they would be Goebbel's I believe.

    As is almost always the case with your threads VV, this one is loaded with potential for a rather emotional discussion. Let's keep level heads about us folks.
    It would have ben Goebbels, he had his family killed before having an SS Honor Guard execute him.

    On topic, Hitler cannot be blamed. If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

    Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died. No one would have died in the Self-Determination that Wilson preached (and used as an excuse to give Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia their own nations) applied to the Germans. Of course, the allies were the biggest hypocrites in history. And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

    Georges Clemenceau
    David Lloyd George
    Vittorio Orlando
    Woodrow Wilson

    Why do you hate Freedom?
    The US is marching backward to the values of Michael Stivic.

  13. #13
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    Correct. Hitler is in no way directly responsible for the war or those casualties. He wasn't even directly involved in the Holocaust(not even sure if he fully aproved of it).
    What is really addressed in this thread is the (rather) old but still vital structuralist-intentionalist dilemma.

    The historiography of nazi Germany was initially dominated by intentionalists, i.e. those who held that Hitler and a few others fully planned and intended the programme they carried out between 1933 and 1945, including the decisions to wage war on various nations, to exterminate the Jews, etcetera. They assumed that Hitler c.s. had full control of political developments and that nazi Germany was a centralised, administratively efficient state that followed his will. I still remember German historian Golo Mann reiterate during a lecture at Leyden University in 1978 that 'Hitler, and Hitler alone, forced the German nation to indulge his delusions, submit to his political will and implement his programme'.

    In the 1960's a new school of thought developed: the structuralists held that nazi Germany was a far less centralised, coherent and efficient state than had been assumed and that many policies, including the attempt to exterminate the Jews, were the result of bureaucratic processes, improvisation and an in-built radicalisation process within the nazi elite. In particular, they reconsidered Hitler's personal weight in the decision-making processes; they stressed the absence of planning for the Holocaust as well as for various wars and demonstrated that Hitler rarely initiated planning and often merely sanctioned the initiative of his subordinates. Holocaust historian Raul Hilberg was the first and for some time also the most prominent proponent of this view.

    More recently Hitler-biographers Hans Mommsen and Ian Kershaw have attempted to transcend the dilemma.

    I am afraid that the claim that 'Hitler is in no way directly responsible for the war' would be shrugged off by all three sides in the debate; of course he was, even though others shared in that responsibility.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 10-22-2005 at 01:07.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  14. #14
    Ambiguous Member Byzantine Prince's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,334

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I still remember German historian Golo Mann reiterate during a lecture at Leyden University in 1978 that 'Hitler, and Hitler alone, forced the German nation to indulge his delusions, submit to his political will and implement his programme'.
    I don't know what he means by delusions, the reason their plans failed was because of Hitler's bad management of the war. Also blaming this on Hitler simply because of his powerful will is ridiculous. It's ignoring all the historic build-up that caused the rise of fascism in Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    I am afraid that the claim that 'Hitler is in no way directly responsible for the war' would be shrugged off by all three sides in the debate; of course he was, even though others shared in that responsibility.
    I disagree, and also I disregard all 3 sides since it seems from what you are saying, they are missing the bigger picture and choosing the lazy way. Yeah I got a bad mark on my test, it's Hitler's fault because if it wasn't for his will I wouldn't have been born and this horrible misfortune would not have hapened.

    God, it's common sense Adrian!

  15. #15
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
    It's ignoring all the historic build-up that caused the rise of fascism in Germany.
    That struck me too, particularly since it was said by a Mann...
    God, it's common sense Adrian!
    It may make sense to you, but it is certainly not common. As for calling the likes of Hilberg, Mommsen or Kershaw 'lazy' -- you wish!
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  16. #16
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    the holy(?) land
    Posts
    1,207

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    It would have ben Goebbels, he had his family killed before having an SS Honor Guard execute him.

    On topic, Hitler cannot be blamed. If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

    Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died. No one would have died in the Self-Determination that Wilson preached (and used as an excuse to give Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia their own nations) applied to the Germans. Of course, the allies were the biggest hypocrites in history. And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

    Georges Clemenceau
    David Lloyd George
    Vittorio Orlando
    Woodrow Wilson
    KoA ,
    Are you saying that the 4 above put the Jews in the gas chambers ? I think you have just took the blame for the Holocaust from the Germans and their collaborators...
    So the trials of 1945-46 were... what ?
    Are you saying that just because the Germans felt humiliated in 1918 they killed innocent people 20 years later ? I am really can't understand the logic here . Clemenceau and George enforced harsh terms on the loosing side , the loosing side felt that he is the victim (???) , the victim (...) attacked the Poles and than killed 5,700,000 Jews and millions of others (civilians , not soldiers) , and the blame is on the 4 ? On Orlando ?
    And to be more direct (if I may) - What are your views about Nazi Germany ?
    Just trying to understand .
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  17. #17
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach
    Posts
    4,028

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    For the war itself the causes were numerous, of which some are understandable. But the wholesale slaughter an ethnic group is completely inexcusable under any circumstances.
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

  18. #18
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    France
    Posts
    3,074

    Default Re : Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by caesar44
    KoA ,
    Are you saying that the 4 above put the Jews in the gas chambers ? I think you have just took the blame for the Holocaust from the Germans and their collaborators...
    So the trials of 1945-46 were... what ?
    Are you saying that just because the Germans felt humiliated in 1918 they killed innocent people 20 years later ? I am really can't understand the logic here . Clemenceau and George enforced harsh terms on the loosing side , the loosing side felt that he is the victim (???) , the victim (...) attacked the Poles and than killed 5,700,000 Jews and millions of others (civilians , not soldiers) , and the blame is on the 4 ? On Orlando ?
    And to be more direct (if I may) - What are your views about Nazi Germany ?
    Just trying to understand .
    Well, you'd better not try to understand, since KoA's main aim is to blame french, socialists and leftists for the war, while claiming that Hitler was just a poor guy who for some weird reasons had to invade Europe and to extreminate slavs, jews and gipsies.

    If I follow his path, I could just aswell find roots of WWII in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war, or, why not, while we're at it, in the breaching of the Frankish Empire in 843 ?
    The Versailles Treaty is always brought in the convo by Hitler apologists, while it was in fact never fully applied.

    Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died.
    Yeah, except that this was probably the first modern war in which civilians were considered as being a valid target. Who started that ? The Allies ? Clemenceau and Wilson during WWI ?
    Furthermore, you don't have a problem with blaming Stalin for the casualties...
    Last edited by Meneldil; 10-22-2005 at 15:22.

  19. #19
    dictator by the people Member caesar44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    the holy(?) land
    Posts
    1,207

    Default Re: Re : Re: blame hitler?

    [QUOTE=Meneldil]Well, you'd better not try to understand, since KoA's main aim is to blame french, socialists and leftists for the war, while claiming that Hitler was just a poor guy who for some weird reasons had to invade Europe and to extreminate slavs, jews and gipsies.


    OK , got it .
    "The essence of philosophy is to ask the eternal question that has no answer" (Aristotel) . "Yes !!!" (me) .

    "Its time we stop worrying, and get angry you know? But not angry and pick up a gun, but angry and open our minds." (Tupac Amaru Shakur)

  20. #20
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    Also, blaming military casualties on people is ridiculous. (..) And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocaust, are the following (..)
    A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  21. #21
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nowhere...
    Posts
    11,757

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
    can hitler be blamed for wwII's 50 million or so deaths?also how did he spend his last days?i just saw the movie Downfall,i liked it but im not sure if its correct,although it seems to be.if anyone else has seen the movie,where the kids killed goerring's?
    You should also see Napola...the beginning of der untergang...its about hitlers childhood...frigging brilliant movie

    We do not sow.

  22. #22
    Urwendur Ûrîbêl Senior Member Mouzafphaerre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Mikligarðr
    Posts
    6,899

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.
    .
    This is a remarkable day as AdrianII now has a face avatar.


    .
    Ja mata Tosa Inu-sama, Hore Tore, Adrian II, Sigurd, Fragony

    Mouzafphaerre is known elsewhere as Urwendil/Urwendur/Kibilturg...
    .

  23. #23
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre
    .
    This is a remarkable day as AdrianII now has a face avatar.


    .
    Since the powers that be granted me the 'Historian' award, I thought I'd better put a brave avatar face on it, dear Brother Mouzafphaerre. And since the gentleman in the exploding hat was the first image that caught my fancy, there he is. I like to think he is the strong, chattering type...
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  24. #24
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,596

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Lol! I always knew that Adrian II was old bearded Inquisitor!
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  25. #25
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by kagemusha
    Lol! I always knew that Adrian II was old bearded Inquisitor!
    Heat up the oil, Brothers; we have a heretic!
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  26. #26
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,596

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Me heretic,this must be somekind of misunderstanding...
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  27. #27
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by kagemusha
    Me heretic,this must be somekind of misunderstanding...
    I felt obliged to answer you and Brother Mouzafphaerre politely, Kagemusha, but this is a thread about Hitler and I made a solemn promise not to spam in the Monastery.


    I know, I know...
    Last edited by Adrian II; 10-22-2005 at 20:07.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  28. #28
    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Nowhere...
    Posts
    11,757

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Capo, youve beaten yourself...again

    We do not sow.

  29. #29

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser of Arabia
    If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

    And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

    Georges Clemenceau
    David Lloyd George
    Vittorio Orlando
    Woodrow Wilson
    If you're gonna blame those guys, why not Von Schlieffen (amongst the other causes of WW1)? Why not Kaiser Wilhelm II? After all, he was the guy who wanted a large German empire. Surely a treaty to punish Germany would not have been needed had there been no war. WW2 was not solely caused because of the Treaty of Versailles.

    The root cause can be taken as far back as the evolution of man, or creationist if you believe that. Without man, there wouldn't have been any WW2 deaths, right?

  30. #30
    Come to daddy Member Geoffrey S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Shell Beach
    Posts
    4,028

    Default Re: blame hitler?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    Since the powers that be granted me the 'Historian' award, I thought I'd better put a brave avatar face on it, dear Brother Mouzafphaerre.
    It's almost like Face/Off...
    "The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO