blame hitler?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.

I was referring to Civilian Casuatlies (that did number about 50 million, I beleive, maybe a little less).

Now, who I blame for WWI and who I blame for WWII are differant people. On WWI I blame:

Kaiser Wilhelm, Tsar Nicolai, and GAVRILO PRINCEP

EDIT: Hitler wouldn't have taken power if the French, Italians, and English weren't such idiots. Why wouldn't he have? He'd be in the army most likely, or he'd at least be able to get a job and live a normal life.

Hitler was responsible for his actions, but he wasn't responsible for being put in a position at which he could have done said actions. If the world had intervened when he demanded the Sudetenland, then they Holocost would have been avoided, correct? Of course I'm right.

[Craterus]

WW1 was inevitable. Blaming Gavrilo Princip is foolish, in my opinion. The assasination of Franz Ferdinand at Sarjevo was the trigger that allowed the war to spark.

The Schlieffen Plan was pure genius, and definitely intended for use. The naval race and colonial rivalry between Britain and Germany made matters worse. The Triple Alliance and Triple Entente meant that everyone would be pulled in when a war did start.

The Sarajevo assasination was just the trigger, if that had failed or not happened at all, there would have just been another trigger.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

WW1 was inevitable. Blaming Gavrilo Princip is foolish, in my opinion. The assasination of Franz Ferdinand at Sarjevo was the trigger that allowed the war to spark.

The Schlieffen Plan was pure genius, and definitely intended for use. The naval race and colonial rivalry between Britain and Germany made matters worse. The Triple Alliance and Triple Entente meant that everyone would be pulled in when a war did start.

The Sarajevo assasination was just the trigger, if that had failed or not happened at all, there would have just been another trigger.

If you want to go all the way back for WWI, let's blame Napoleon III (I beleive that was him) and Bismarck, mainly Napoleon III, though. He was an idiot, I beleive we all know that.

Of course, we can't argue that Gavrilo Princep was an evil anarchist antichrist who was the spark that ignited the gunpowder. It would't have happened to him if he didn't kill one of the best men Austria...and the world...had at the time.

[Craterus]

If you want to go all the way back for WWI, let's blame Napoleon III (I beleive that was him) and Bismarck, mainly Napoleon III, though. He was an idiot, I beleive we all know that.

Of course, we can't argue that Gavrilo Princep was an evil anarchist antichrist who was the spark that ignited the gunpowder. It would't have happened to him if he didn't kill one of the best men Austria...and the world...had at the time.

I agree with you there. If the first 6 hadn't have been too scared to throw their bombs, fire their guns, or at least manage to hit the target, we'd have another name to blame.
If we were to go with your original statement of blaming Gavrilo Princip, I think it'd be more appropriate to blame the Black Hand Gang and those that funded them (a German politician, I believe).

[Tribesman]

If the world had intervened when he demanded the Sudetenland, then they Holocost would have been avoided, correct? Of course I'm right.

Nope , it may have altered the scale and the timeline , but only an intervention to overthrow the biological racism that the Nazi Party and others espoused would have been enough to stop it .

[Craterus]

Hitler brewed up the racism against the Jews in the years leading up to the war. The "brain-washed" people would have expected some action, as they had been "trained" to hate the Jews. The holocaust would have happened, had they let him have the Sudetenland or not. Hitler began to kill more and more Jews as the war got worse for the Germans. If the Brits, French etc. hadn't followed their policy of appeasement and started a war immediately, Hitler may have started killing Jews anyway.

[Kagemusha]

Okay my dear Inquisitor. My five cents on Hitler.
Mediocre artist who was mentally unbalanced, human who lived in denial his entire life. He created in his imagination an way to accuse other people for his own failures.In his case jews and other minorities.
On the other hand,magnificent speaker who had almost demonic grasp on his audience.If Hitler would have loved acting like art,people of 20th century could have may even have been spared from another World wide catastrophy.As an organisator Hitler was very talented,he had ability to find right people in right jobs.
As an military commander,in my opinion he was pathetic.The Prussian military system which was forged over centuries.Was the most efficient military system of its time.He had exellent commanders both in Strategig and tactical levels.As long as he left the command of Operations to his Commanders,Germany saw no defeat But after autumn 1941 when he took direct command of German Military Operations,Germany didnt saw anything else but defeat.
At the end of the war Hitler was already a complete lunatic,which was samekind of lunacy that we see in his earlier deniel of things.He gave commands to army groups that didnt exist anymore.
As for personal side of Hitler,he was control freek.His relationship to his neace and Eva Brown shows it clearly.His personal self esteem was so low that he tryed to separate people in the little lifes where Hitler himself was the only actual person.
And for his role on Holocaust.Anyone who tryes to say that Hitler was just the part of the people who constructed this industry to mass murder people are liers.He was the father of the Holocaust.He really thought that there was only one race worth living Aryans,which is sad and funny at the same time becouse Aryans were an people that long time a go invaded India.And their only remaining relatives are the gupsys.

[Craterus]

The fact that he himself was not a typical Aryan (blond hair, blue eyes, tall) is the strangest part about it. And it seemed that no-one noticed..

Hitler didn't get into the university of Vienna as an art student, because he was told he wasn't good enough. His interviewer was Jewish. Perhaps a reason for his hatred, but I believe he targetted the Jews, gays and disabled because he knew the Germans wanted someone to blame. The Jews held good jobs (university professors etc.) whilst the "real" Germans were living in poverty during the Depression.

This started the hate against the Jews, and with the help of Hitler Youth and the other organisations, he managed to convince an entire nation.

[Tribesman]

The fact that he himself was not a typical Aryan (blond hair, blue eyes, tall) is the strangest part about it. And it seemed that no-one noticed..

Surely Himmler is a better example of the fine Aryan master race

Hitler didn't get into the university of Vienna as an art student, because he was told he wasn't good enough.
Well mainly because he couldn't draw people or animals good enough , so that ruled out the Fine arts , and his lack of education ruled out architectural art .
This started the hate against the Jews
His hatred predated that by several years .

[Craterus]

His hatred predated that by several years .

I didn't say his didn't. I was talking about most of the German nation.

[GoreBag]

The fact that he himself was not a typical Aryan (blond hair, blue eyes, tall) is the strangest part about it. And it seemed that no-one noticed..

Wowww...woooooowww. No Germans (by ethnicity, of course) are Aryans.

I always wondered about that, and came to the conclusion that either 1) A breeding program would have been started in order to breed all the non-blondes out over a period of time or 2) He'd use his dominant genes to make it very easy for his progeny to take over affairs of government, like primogeniture, once the breeding program from #1 was implemented.

[Adrian II]

His personal self esteem was so low that he tryed to separate people in the little lifes where Hitler himself was the only actual person.

Very perceptive of you, my esteemed heretic.

Tomorrow is Sunday, I will take out my 'Hitler books' and related stuff and see how far your notion applies to most of Hitler's known friendships and political partnerships, particularly his close friend Goebbels. Interesting point, thank you.


There are many theories about the true nature or causes of Hitler's antisemitism. One theory has it that his legal father Alois was not his natural father and that Adolf was in reality the bastard of a Jewish notable who had employed Hitler's mother as a housekeeper for some time. No written sources were ever provided and most Hitler-biographers mention that the theory is based on hearsay. In his later years Hitler was the object of countless derogatory rumours in the inner nazi circle and this may have been one of those.

I am not sure that he was truly and deeply convinced that Jews were the enemy. As a counterpoint to what you wrote about Hitler being the 'father of the Holocaust' I would mention Ian Kershaw's two-volume biography Hubris (1998) and Nemesis (2000). Based on Joseph Goebbels' complete diary as well as other newly available sources (some of which had been locked away for decades in the former Soviet Union) he comes to the conclusion that Hitler actually had to be urged by his more fanatic subordinates into instituting the yellow star, the mass deportations and Heydrich's extermination policy. Goebbels played a main part in those episodes.

I wonder if you have read the essay The Meaning of Hitler (1979) by Sebastian Haffner, a pseudonym for Raimund Pretzel. It you have not, I am sure it will be very much to your liking. It is about 150 pages without footnotes, and a great read for anyone interested in the detailed analysis of precisely those issues that you addressed above. The booklet treats seven aspects of Hitler and his regime in seven concise chapters in a very detached style entitled Life, Achievements, Successes, Misconceptions, Mistakes, Crimes, and Betrayal. Bloody perfect, if you ask me.

Viennese author Karl Kraus opened his 300-page anti-nazi polemic Third Walpurgisnight (1933) with the line that he had nothing to say about Hitler ('Mir fällt zu Hitler nichts ein'). That is typical for all that has been said and written about the man for almost a century: all the criticism of the man, his policies, his speeches and writing somehow does not revolve around a real person, a flesh and blood individual that we can even remotely identify with. If anything, he is not above or beyond analysis, but beneath it. Once again I believe Haffner said it best when he wrote in the booklet that Hitler is best understood not as a politician or statesman but as essentially a criminal, a pure 'mass murderer' who made it to center stage in world affairs. I am not a mass murderer. I do not understand Adolf Hitler and I probably never will.

[Kagemusha]

Thank You bearded inquisitor for the material i will look at those when i have time for the Shogun Mod.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I agree with you there. If the first 6 hadn't have been too scared to throw their bombs, fire their guns, or at least manage to hit the target, we'd have another name to blame.
If we were to go with your original statement of blaming Gavrilo Princip, I think it'd be more appropriate to blame the Black Hand Gang and those that funded them (a German politician, I believe).

Didn't Serbia help them too?

I find the assassination funny, let me put it how my history teacher put it.

Ok, Franz Ferdinand goes to Serejevo, right? So, there is this Serbian nationalist group called the Black hand. They want to kill him. So first, they try to shoot him. They miss and get arrested. Now, they decide to throw bombs, now, they decide to throw them from both sides of the car. The bombs go over the car and you have 4 fried assassins. Now, they're at their last throws, so they give this 19 year old collage kid an adress and a six shooter. Now, he's walking around town WITH A GUN OUT asking where the adress was. No one knew where it was, well, it turned out to be town hall, they could have said Town hall but they give him the adress. So, he just happens to be there when Franz passes. Bam. Dead Austrian Heir

A brief summary.

[Tribesman]

A brief summary.

You have got to be kidding Capo .
If not then ask your education authority to check Mr Millers achedemic qualifications .

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=kagemusha]
On the other hand,magnificent speaker who had almost demonic grasp on his audience.

I wonder , do you think that this Schikelbruger (Hitler) could have succeed if he had an American audience , or an English , or a French ? Imho , the German people (let say , a big part of it) in the 30' was the best audience that Hitler could have . On second though , how it came to be that (maybe) the most advanced society at the time received in such enthusiasm this Mambo Jumbo about the Aryan race , Superhumans , subhumans etc' ?

[Tribesman]

On second though , how it came to be that (maybe) the most advanced society at the time received in such enthusiasm this Mambo Jumbo about the Aryan race , Superhumans , subhumans etc' ?

Because people are basically stupid , if someone offers a simple answer then they grasp it .
In this case everything was the fault of the Jews , in other cases everything is the fault of the Blacks , Asians , Europeans , Americans , Israelis , Christians , Muslims , Intellectuals , Communists , Capitalists , Royalty , Liberals .....
It doesn't matter if any of of it is true , people are stupid and want an easy answer , if that answer can make them feel better about themselves and somehow superior then they will swallow it even easier .
Humans eh ? stuff 'em

[Fragony]

Any of you know Sebastian Haffner? He has written a good book about this(don't know of an english translation, google says Idunno), he likes to approach the shoah and WW2 as two seperate events that happened within the same period, and I tend to agree. WW2 was really part deux of the first, and cannot be totally blamed on Hitler, but Hitler is of course responsible for the Shoah.

[Adrian II]

Because people are basically stupid, if someone offers a simple answer then they grasp it.

't Is a tad more complicated.

Hitler never convinced more than one third of the electorate to vote for him. He probably managed to 'convert' more of them (including part of the former Communist electorate) after 1933 because he delivered on the economic front: six million jobs, moderate wealth for every German family and the promise of a Volkswagen around the corner. And this after years of crisis during which many people worried of they could afford to buy bread the next day.

Many were indifferent to his war cries and did not believe it would come to that, nor to the wholesale deportation and mass murder of Jews. When push came to shove in 1938 and onward, ordinary Germans did not have a say in the matter anyway.

The atmosphere in those days was surreal, not only in Berlin, London, Warsaw, Paris and other capitals, but also in the German streets. On the day war with Poland broke out, young Heinrich Böll went to the swimming pool, lay in the sun and smoked as if this were just another day. When he came home, his mother sat at the kitchen table with as ashen face. His conscription letter had arrived. They knew it would, yet they had never believed it would. The officially sanctioned parades, mass meetings and staged 'hurrays' could not conceal that the German public was much more reluctant about going to war than in August of 1914.

(..) people are stupid and want an easy answer, if that answer can make them feel better about themselves and somehow superior then they will swallow it even easier.

Böll, for one, was far from stupid. Take it from there and you will gradually discover that there is much more to this dramatic historical episode than just 'people being stupid'.

@Fragony. That would be Defying Hitler: A Memoir. Haffner also once said that all Germany's ills in the modern age were the consequence of its position and size: 'Too small for a tablecloth, too big for a napkin.' Great man. He died listening to Bach, go figure.

[Fragony]

@Fragony. That would be Defying Hitler: A Memoir. Haffner also once said that all Germany's ills in the modern age were the consequence of its position and size: 'Too small for a tablecloth, too big for a napkin.' Great man. He died listening to Bach, go figure.

That would be from 'from Bischmark to Hitler', and of course the faction info from medieval: total war . Great book, seems like WW1 was inevitable as well.

[Adrian II]

On second though , how it came to be that (maybe) the most advanced society at the time received in such enthusiasm this Mambo Jumbo about the Aryan race , Superhumans , subhumans etc' ?

It did not, that is the whole point. Most people were indifferent to most of those notions, provided that Hitler delivered, particularly in the economy. Which he did between 1933 and 1939. Because of this prevalent indifference on the part of the public, greater minds had to be very courageous to stand up to Hitler and run the risk of being deported and never seen again. Many emigrated, either abroad or in the mind.

[Adrian II]

That would be from 'from Bischmark to Hitler', and of course the faction info from medieval: total war . Great book, seems like WW1 was inevitable as well.

I never read that. Not surprisingly, he took up that same notion in his memoirs though. In those, he wrote that for many boys of his generation 'the war never stopped between 1914 and 1945'.

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=Tribesman]
people are basically stupid


You can say that again... hey , but that includes us...

[caesar44]

It did not, that is the whole point. Most people were indifferent to most of those notions, provided that Hitler delivered, particularly in the economy. Which he did between 1933 and 1939. Because of this prevalent indifference on the part of the public, greater minds had to be very courageous to stand up to Hitler and run the risk of being deported and never seen again. Many emigrated, either abroad or in the mind.

44% in the last elections and rising ! + 12% for the other ultra right parties . Do you think that such an ideas could have took a hold in the Western societies of the 30' ?

Edit : Yes , you are saying that the Germans did not vote for Hitler because of his Mambo Jumbo but because of his economical program . Correct ? If so , Tribesman is right , they did not know anything about his militarism , imperialism , racism , hatred etc' ? I say , give them the credit , they knew exactly what Hitler stands for .
(Please ignore my English) .

[The Stranger]

i can understand why england and france didnt want war...it was soo short after their terrible expierience in 1914-18. would like to redo it sure their people wouldnt.

[Geoffrey S]

Thing is, the Nazi party was delivering on its promises of a stronger German economy. People are all too often to overlook the bad sides of a political party if that party increases the personal standard of living. This tendency is most certainly not limited to Germany in the '30s.

[Tribesman]

Thing is, the Nazi party was delivering on its promises of a stronger German economy.
Geoffrey : But that delivery was a very short term "fix" that would lead to an even bigger problem in the medium term .
This tendency is most certainly not limited to Germany in the '30s.
I listed a dozen other examples earlier , some still ongoing today . But as in each case the targeted problem isn't really the real problem then the short term "fix" just doesn't work , though it can produce a few "nice" headlines and figures.

Take it from there and you will gradually discover that there is much more to this dramatic historical episode than just 'people being stupid'.

Adrian: I know , but it is the best quick explanation .
Most studies on this episode run to several hundred pages , often several volumes of several hundred pages all cross referenced to other works of several hundred pages .
A more thorough explanation would cover not only the decades of the NSDAP
or dear old Adolfs lifetime but stretch over centuries , if not millenia .

you are saying that the Germans did not vote for Hitler because of his Mambo Jumbo but because of his economical program .
Ceasar :But the economical program was inexorably linked to the racist program , everything from finance to education , health , agriculture and......
BTW44% in the last elections and rising ! where did you get that figure ?
You can say that again... hey , but that includes us...
Well we are only human after all .

[The Stranger]

[QUOTE=caesar44]

people are basically stupid

thats not true, people on their own are inteligent but the mass is stupid

[Arcanum]

You should also see Napola...the beginning of der untergang...its about hitlers childhood...frigging brilliant movie

It's not about Hitler's childhood, it's about the Hitler Youths and the "Nationalpolitische Lager". What the nazis proclaimed the coming elite and it's not the beginning of "Der Untergang", "Napola" is independant made from "Der Untergang".

[The Stranger]

hmmm, then it isnt napola...thought it was...srry mixed up titles