blame hitler?

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I haven't seen the movie, but if the children being killed was in the Bunker at the very end, then they would be Goebbel's I believe.

As is almost always the case with your threads VV, this one is loaded with potential for a rather emotional discussion. Let's keep level heads about us folks.

It would have ben Goebbels, he had his family killed before having an SS Honor Guard execute him.

On topic, Hitler cannot be blamed. If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died. No one would have died in the Self-Determination that Wilson preached (and used as an excuse to give Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia their own nations) applied to the Germans. Of course, the allies were the biggest hypocrites in history. And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

Georges Clemenceau
David Lloyd George
Vittorio Orlando
Woodrow Wilson

[caesar44]

It would have ben Goebbels, he had his family killed before having an SS Honor Guard execute him.

On topic, Hitler cannot be blamed. If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died. No one would have died in the Self-Determination that Wilson preached (and used as an excuse to give Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia their own nations) applied to the Germans. Of course, the allies were the biggest hypocrites in history. And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

Georges Clemenceau
David Lloyd George
Vittorio Orlando
Woodrow Wilson

KoA ,
Are you saying that the 4 above put the Jews in the gas chambers ? I think you have just took the blame for the Holocaust from the Germans and their collaborators...
So the trials of 1945-46 were... what ?
Are you saying that just because the Germans felt humiliated in 1918 they killed innocent people 20 years later ? I am really can't understand the logic here . Clemenceau and George enforced harsh terms on the loosing side , the loosing side felt that he is the victim (???) , the victim (...) attacked the Poles and than killed 5,700,000 Jews and millions of others (civilians , not soldiers) , and the blame is on the 4 ? On Orlando ?
And to be more direct (if I may) - What are your views about Nazi Germany ?
Just trying to understand .

[Geoffrey S]

For the war itself the causes were numerous, of which some are understandable. But the wholesale slaughter an ethnic group is completely inexcusable under any circumstances.

[Meneldil]

KoA ,
Are you saying that the 4 above put the Jews in the gas chambers ? I think you have just took the blame for the Holocaust from the Germans and their collaborators...
So the trials of 1945-46 were... what ?
Are you saying that just because the Germans felt humiliated in 1918 they killed innocent people 20 years later ? I am really can't understand the logic here . Clemenceau and George enforced harsh terms on the loosing side , the loosing side felt that he is the victim (???) , the victim (...) attacked the Poles and than killed 5,700,000 Jews and millions of others (civilians , not soldiers) , and the blame is on the 4 ? On Orlando ?
And to be more direct (if I may) - What are your views about Nazi Germany ?
Just trying to understand .

Well, you'd better not try to understand, since KoA's main aim is to blame french, socialists and leftists for the war, while claiming that Hitler was just a poor guy who for some weird reasons had to invade Europe and to extreminate slavs, jews and gipsies.

If I follow his path, I could just aswell find roots of WWII in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war, or, why not, while we're at it, in the breaching of the Frankish Empire in 843 ?
The Versailles Treaty is always brought in the convo by Hitler apologists, while it was in fact never fully applied.

Also, blaming military casualties on people is rediculious. In war's people died.

Yeah, except that this was probably the first modern war in which civilians were considered as being a valid target. Who started that ? The Allies ? Clemenceau and Wilson during WWI ?
Furthermore, you don't have a problem with blaming Stalin for the casualties...

[caesar44]

[QUOTE=Meneldil]Well, you'd better not try to understand, since KoA's main aim is to blame french, socialists and leftists for the war, while claiming that Hitler was just a poor guy who for some weird reasons had to invade Europe and to extreminate slavs, jews and gipsies.


OK , got it .

[Adrian II]

Also, blaming military casualties on people is ridiculous. (..) And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocaust, are the following (..)

A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.

[Mouzafphaerre]

A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.

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This is a remarkable day as AdrianII now has a face avatar.


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[Adrian II]

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This is a remarkable day as AdrianII now has a face avatar.


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Since the powers that be granted me the 'Historian' award, I thought I'd better put a brave avatar face on it, dear Brother Mouzafphaerre. And since the gentleman in the exploding hat was the first image that caught my fancy, there he is. I like to think he is the strong, chattering type...

[Geoffrey S]

Since the powers that be granted me the 'Historian' award, I thought I'd better put a brave avatar face on it, dear Brother Mouzafphaerre.

It's almost like Face/Off...

[Kagemusha]

Lol! I always knew that Adrian II was old bearded Inquisitor!

[Adrian II]

Lol! I always knew that Adrian II was old bearded Inquisitor!

Heat up the oil, Brothers; we have a heretic!

[Kagemusha]

Me heretic,this must be somekind of misunderstanding...

[Adrian II]

Me heretic,this must be somekind of misunderstanding...

I felt obliged to answer you and Brother Mouzafphaerre politely, Kagemusha, but this is a thread about Hitler and I made a solemn promise not to spam in the Monastery.


I know, I know...

[Kaiser of Arabia]

A minimum of consistency is advised if you want to participate in the debate.

I was referring to Civilian Casuatlies (that did number about 50 million, I beleive, maybe a little less).

Now, who I blame for WWI and who I blame for WWII are differant people. On WWI I blame:

Kaiser Wilhelm, Tsar Nicolai, and GAVRILO PRINCEP

EDIT: Hitler wouldn't have taken power if the French, Italians, and English weren't such idiots. Why wouldn't he have? He'd be in the army most likely, or he'd at least be able to get a job and live a normal life.

Hitler was responsible for his actions, but he wasn't responsible for being put in a position at which he could have done said actions. If the world had intervened when he demanded the Sudetenland, then they Holocost would have been avoided, correct? Of course I'm right.

[Craterus]

WW1 was inevitable. Blaming Gavrilo Princip is foolish, in my opinion. The assasination of Franz Ferdinand at Sarjevo was the trigger that allowed the war to spark.

The Schlieffen Plan was pure genius, and definitely intended for use. The naval race and colonial rivalry between Britain and Germany made matters worse. The Triple Alliance and Triple Entente meant that everyone would be pulled in when a war did start.

The Sarajevo assasination was just the trigger, if that had failed or not happened at all, there would have just been another trigger.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

WW1 was inevitable. Blaming Gavrilo Princip is foolish, in my opinion. The assasination of Franz Ferdinand at Sarjevo was the trigger that allowed the war to spark.

The Schlieffen Plan was pure genius, and definitely intended for use. The naval race and colonial rivalry between Britain and Germany made matters worse. The Triple Alliance and Triple Entente meant that everyone would be pulled in when a war did start.

The Sarajevo assasination was just the trigger, if that had failed or not happened at all, there would have just been another trigger.

If you want to go all the way back for WWI, let's blame Napoleon III (I beleive that was him) and Bismarck, mainly Napoleon III, though. He was an idiot, I beleive we all know that.

Of course, we can't argue that Gavrilo Princep was an evil anarchist antichrist who was the spark that ignited the gunpowder. It would't have happened to him if he didn't kill one of the best men Austria...and the world...had at the time.

[Craterus]

If you want to go all the way back for WWI, let's blame Napoleon III (I beleive that was him) and Bismarck, mainly Napoleon III, though. He was an idiot, I beleive we all know that.

Of course, we can't argue that Gavrilo Princep was an evil anarchist antichrist who was the spark that ignited the gunpowder. It would't have happened to him if he didn't kill one of the best men Austria...and the world...had at the time.

I agree with you there. If the first 6 hadn't have been too scared to throw their bombs, fire their guns, or at least manage to hit the target, we'd have another name to blame.
If we were to go with your original statement of blaming Gavrilo Princip, I think it'd be more appropriate to blame the Black Hand Gang and those that funded them (a German politician, I believe).

[Kaiser of Arabia]

I agree with you there. If the first 6 hadn't have been too scared to throw their bombs, fire their guns, or at least manage to hit the target, we'd have another name to blame.
If we were to go with your original statement of blaming Gavrilo Princip, I think it'd be more appropriate to blame the Black Hand Gang and those that funded them (a German politician, I believe).

Didn't Serbia help them too?

I find the assassination funny, let me put it how my history teacher put it.

Ok, Franz Ferdinand goes to Serejevo, right? So, there is this Serbian nationalist group called the Black hand. They want to kill him. So first, they try to shoot him. They miss and get arrested. Now, they decide to throw bombs, now, they decide to throw them from both sides of the car. The bombs go over the car and you have 4 fried assassins. Now, they're at their last throws, so they give this 19 year old collage kid an adress and a six shooter. Now, he's walking around town WITH A GUN OUT asking where the adress was. No one knew where it was, well, it turned out to be town hall, they could have said Town hall but they give him the adress. So, he just happens to be there when Franz passes. Bam. Dead Austrian Heir

A brief summary.

[Tribesman]

If the world had intervened when he demanded the Sudetenland, then they Holocost would have been avoided, correct? Of course I'm right.

Nope , it may have altered the scale and the timeline , but only an intervention to overthrow the biological racism that the Nazi Party and others espoused would have been enough to stop it .

[Craterus]

Hitler brewed up the racism against the Jews in the years leading up to the war. The "brain-washed" people would have expected some action, as they had been "trained" to hate the Jews. The holocaust would have happened, had they let him have the Sudetenland or not. Hitler began to kill more and more Jews as the war got worse for the Germans. If the Brits, French etc. hadn't followed their policy of appeasement and started a war immediately, Hitler may have started killing Jews anyway.

[Kralizec]

On WWI I blame: .... GAVRILO PRINCEP

A Serbian student caused 15 million deaths by killing a foreign overlord? That's viewing things in black and white plus being ignorant difference between the two.

If I would have to point out a single, major cause for WW1, it would be the trend of making alliances and support pacts. In this time many people had begun to believe that by using treaties and international politics war could be banished and their country secured. Add to that all the trouble that had been going on in the Balkans and you have a recipe for disaster. Individual people are merely catalysts.

[Craterus]

If you want to go to the root cause of the deaths, go back to Versailles. If England and France weren't so harsh and followed Wilson's plan, the 50 million plus dead.

And the people I blame for WWII and their deaths, and the holocost, are the following:

Georges Clemenceau
David Lloyd George
Vittorio Orlando
Woodrow Wilson

If you're gonna blame those guys, why not Von Schlieffen (amongst the other causes of WW1)? Why not Kaiser Wilhelm II? After all, he was the guy who wanted a large German empire. Surely a treaty to punish Germany would not have been needed had there been no war. WW2 was not solely caused because of the Treaty of Versailles.

The root cause can be taken as far back as the evolution of man, or creationist if you believe that. Without man, there wouldn't have been any WW2 deaths, right?