Attacking Uphills - Need Help!

[Legorreto]

Can anyone suggest the best way to attack uphills? I have tried many ways, but none seems to be real effective. I generaly have a bigger army, but this doesn't seems to be a real advantage.

I AWAIT THY RESPONSES!

[Pericles]

Move your cavalry and HAs to the flanks of the enemy on the hill and approach the enemy either slightly higher than them or at least on the same level. Let your HAs loose against the enemy flanks while your Cav protects them.

Your foot archers should move uphill and should be widely spaced and have them attack the enemy archers.

Use a few troops to apprach from the front (widely spaced) and then move the bulk of your forces obliquely up the hill to the sides of the enemy.

Be warned - you will take lots of casualties.

As an alternative, use HAs and try to lure the enemy down to attack you (so that you can strike them with your archers on a more even footing).

Best of luck.

[Roark]

Yeah, attacking mountainous regions is always expensive. Terrain is a big factor in battle.

As Pericles said, try to draw units out of formation with goading.

[m52nickerson]

Whole sale flank, or at least move to a position of a equal level. Most of the time they will try to move to a new position, hit them while they are moving.

[NodachiSam]

Whole sale flank, or at least move to a position of a equal level. Most of the time they will try to move to a new position, hit them while they are moving.

Exactly, always try to attack from the highest ground possible in relation to your enemies. If they are on a ridge, climb the ridge out of the arrow range and then move in to flank them. If they are on an isolated hill, go up the side with the lowest slope. Attacking from behind or a flank is preferable since your enemy will have to reorganize. Be aware that sometimes if you attack from a very advantageous angle (like from behind and downhill-very rare) the enemy might flee to another hill or away entirely. That might be what you want but if you want to inflict heavy casualties you won't want to scare them too much. Often that isn't the case of course. There is a balance between keeping you enemy in a distadvataged position and actually making use of it if you can kind of get what I am trying to say.

You can also use horce archers or regular archers even to lure them off the hill. I don't usually do it, but you could have a pseudo attack and retreat to attempt to make some of the enemies units chase you off the hill. You always get the unit/s that false strike hit by arrow fire.

When the normans under william the bastard (later to be referred to as william the great/ conqueror) attacked saxon england, the saxons took a hill but parts of their soldiers would chase retreating normans down giving up their defensive position. They'd get surrounded by French knights and killed/captured.

To repeat; always try to get the higher ground or the highest ground possible. Never attack (or defend) from lower ground unless forced to.

[Patron]

I wo uldn't try the william th e conqueror method. I'd split my army in 3 and attack from 2 sides leaving elite shock troops in between to travel uphill between the 2 melees.

Or you could take advantage of an AI stupidity, the aI forms a nice long line regardless of terrain and puts it's general on the highest point. If the enemy is on a ridge, just march your army so that when the enemy reforms the line it's line is perpendicular to the ridge and you have a level playing field, then split your army into 3 etc..

[King Kurt]

You can't beat a good goad. I always try to have 1 light cavalry unit at least in my army for scouting and goading purposes. This is true for woods as well as hills. You can usually pull the opposing army out of formation and most armies have some impetuous troops in them.

[Budwise]

You can't beat a good goad. I always try to have 1 light cavalry unit at least in my army for scouting and goading purposes. This is true for woods as well as hills. You can usually pull the opposing army out of formation and most armies have some impetuous troops in them.

What is a "Goad?"

For some reason, I don't know.

[Budwise]

What is a "Goad?"

For some reason, I don't know.

4 entries found for goad.
goad ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gd)
n.
A long stick with a pointed end used for prodding animals.
An agent or means of prodding or urging; a stimulus.

tr.v. goad·ed, goad·ing, goads
To prod or urge with or as if with a long pointed stick.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English gode, from Old English gd.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


goad

n 1: a pointed instrument used to prod into motion [syn: prod] 2: a verbalization that encourages you to attempt something; "the ceaseless prodding got on his nerves" [syn: goading, prod, prodding, urging, spur, spurring] v 1: give heart or courage to [syn: spur] 2: urge with or as if with a goad 3: prod or urge as if with a log stick [syn: prick] 4: goad or provoke,as by constant criticism; "He needled her with his sarcastic remarks" [syn: needle]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


goad

(Heb. malmad, only in Judg. 3: 31), an instrument used by ploughmen for guiding
their oxen. Shamgar slew six hundred Philistines with an ox-goad. "The goad is
a formidable weapon. It is sometimes ten feet long, and has a sharp point. We
could now see that the feat of Shamgar was not so very wonderful as some have
been accustomed to think." In 1 Sam. 13:21, a different Hebrew word is used,
_dorban_, meaning something pointed. The expression (Acts 9:5, omitted in the
R.V.), "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks", i.e., against the
goad, was proverbial for unavailing resistance to superior power.


NOW YOU KNOW.

[Budwise]

How again is Goading effective? I don't see how prodding animals will help at all on the frontline.

[Mithrandir]

Can anyone suggest the best way to attack uphills? I have tried many ways, but none seems to be real effective. I generaly have a bigger army, but this doesn't seems to be a real advantage.

I AWAIT THY RESPONSES!

Welcome to The Org Legorreto.

When attacking uphill it's important to do some quick maths. Especially the ranged factor comes into play because archers get a big bonus when shooting downhill.

If the enemy has just 2 or 3 archers and you have many more, use one archer to draw the fire of them, sacrifice them. Then when the enemy has got no arrows left anymore, move your archers in to shoot the enemy up.

If the enemy has a lot of ranged units, consider a rush, a shoot-out will be lost anyway. Then, as mentioned above, make sure to minimalize the height difference and exploit the morale factors.

Adjust your army before attacking by having good intell from spies about the enemy army and the terrain.

-Mithrandir.

[King Kurt]

What is a "Goad?"

For some reason, I don't know.

Perhaps I should have said lure - then we could have had a discussion about fishing!!
From the copious definitions, I was glad to see a mention of pointy sticks, cos it is well known in MTW that he with the most pointy sticks usually wins.

As I said, there is nothing like a good goad - or lure - you send your little unit of horse archers into a wood you know is full of bad guys and before you can rustle a few leaves, out pours a collection of troops all chasing your slightly surprised light cavalry. You wait patiently for them to bring the opposing army over to you as you sit quietly in a neat formation and when they arrive in a higgledy piggedly mess, you give them a short, sharp shock with your pointy sticks - game over

[English assassin]

As is said above, manoeuvre is the key. The AI is not that clever about taking a good position on the terrain and sticking to it.

The one thing not to do is march up the hill at them, unless there is no alternative. If you can come at the hill on either side of their line, (I mean on one side or the other, not both at once) they have either to wheel to face you, and chances are quite a few units will move down the slope to do so which evens things out, or let you attack half their army with all of yours, which is not good for them.

Leave a few cav units down in the valley while you do this, ready for a flank attack if they do wheel and come down slope.

if you have to march up the hill, if they have archers, I would move archer fodder (eg FS/ChivS) JUST into archer range in loose formation and leave them there as pincushions. The AI isn't clever about saving ammo. The attack once the archers are out of ammo. And, not that its all that likely a scenario, but for gods sake don't attack uphill with armoured troops against javelin armed troops. Slow moving attackers plus the extra range on the javs is instant death. (Of course this is very satisfying if you do it when you are the defender)

[Vladimir]

The answer: Don't. Draw out your attacker as everyone else has said. The AI isn't very I so goad the enemy into attacking and draw out of formation. They enemy WANTS to attack downhill, encourage it. It's really effective with Pavaise Arbalesters although they usually can't get out of the way fast enough.

[Budwise]

Perhaps I should have said lure - then we could have had a discussion about fishing!!
From the copious definitions, I was glad to see a mention of pointy sticks, cos it is well known in MTW that he with the most pointy sticks usually wins.

As I said, there is nothing like a good goad - or lure - you send your little unit of horse archers into a wood you know is full of bad guys and before you can rustle a few leaves, out pours a collection of troops all chasing your slightly surprised light cavalry. You wait patiently for them to bring the opposing army over to you as you sit quietly in a neat formation and when they arrive in a higgledy piggedly mess, you give them a short, sharp shock with your pointy sticks - game over

Lure, I understand that one. I live in the US and I have never in my life heard the word Goad used like you have used it. I'm just from a different part of the world I guess.

[bretwalda]

"Pincushion" works neatly with a depleted outdated spear unit if you happen to have one. Also if you march them up and down less arrows will hit. As said loose formation helps a lot. Somehow the less men there are in the unit the less casualties there are. Once I made the enemy (Papacy, gah!!!) use half of their ammo on a 20 men FS, on loose formation marching to and fro. Finally they were all shot down but so many rounds were used by the enemy that it was worth it. I always realized that each volley shot at the FS will save my favourite Gallowglasses, Swabian Swordsmen, etc...

[King Kurt]

Lure, I understand that one. I live in the US and I have never in my life heard the word Goad used like you have used it. I'm just from a different part of the world I guess.

The next thing you know, we will be talking about tomatoes, potatoes, taps and fawcetts, lifts and elevators. Even worse, we might have to explain why we eat faggots with chips, mushy peas and gravy. OOps going a bit off topic!!

The ruse with the light cavalry really works - I used the other day when my ontnumbered English who were attacking a pile of Novos hideing in a large wood were flushed out with 1 unit of merc bysantine horse archers. The unruly Russki mob arrived at my perfectly formed front line suitably shot up with longbows before getting chopped up by bills and CMAA.

[DensterNY]

Certainly good advice from several members here if you're playing against the AI to exploit its weakness in not holding a solid defensive position and inability to deal with a split army.

I usually play the English and whenever I'm in this situation I use one unit of Hobilars to draw my enemies out of their position into the range of my archers. Half the time the AI sends out some sort of Spearmen which I'm glad to be rid of so that I can charge my cavalry into them and the other half of the time they send out good heavy infantry. In either situation I can clear coverage for their archers and send my cavalry to target them as I march my infantry into their ranks. Usually by the time formal melee is underway I've taken out a good 40% of their army and turned the advantage towards me.

Its great satisfaction to decimate an enemy with numerical superiority entrenched in a solid defensive position.

[Vladimir]

Its great satisfaction to decimate an enemy with numerical superiority entrenched in a solid defensive position.

Ya, attacking with smaller and smaller armies is kinda like doing drugs, if you win. When you win it feels so good that you want to use fewer and fewer units until you're down to one unit of royal knights. Then you get the shakes.

[Geezer57]

Had a couple of battles recently in my Irish/Early/Expert/GA/XL Mod campaign that had me pleased but a bit puzzled.

Since I'd earlier taken Wales and developed it, when 1205 A.D. rolled around I had access to Welsh Longbowmen and Arbalesters for my armies. During the course of securing the Iberian peninsula, I was attacked by a fairly big Spanish army (3.5k+) led by a 2-star General - my defending forces numbered less than half (1.6k) with a 6-star Prince. I set up a typical defensive position, with Arbalesters at front center, Welsh Longbows behind, backed up with a couple of Armored Spearmen in the event of a cavalry charge against the missle troops. There was a patch of woods on my left flank, so Huscarles went there - my right flank was open, so I positioned my cavalry (a mix of Irish Horsemen, Mounter Sergeants, and a Royal Knight) there.

The Spanish approached, led by Jinettes and Javelin men, and were met with a hail of arrow/bolt fire. The Jinettes, being large targets, literally melted away - the Javelins lasted a little longer, and soon switched to loose formation. Neither reached engagement range before deciding to retreat (not routed). They were then followed by some Feudal Sergeants and one FMAA - they received the same treatment and had the same response: they left. One unit of Royals followed them, accompanied by a half-unit of the same - they both died to a man, except for the singleton that routed off the map.

After accepting just over 200 casualties, the Spanish forces all just retreated off the map, having inflicted a total of zero losses to the Irish. Next turn had a similar (but smaller) battle with Portuguese Rebels, where things went almost exactly the same - only with fewer losses (125 or so) for them (still none for me).

Now I can see an individual unit breaking and routing under excessive missle fire, or even a unit that decides to withdraw in an orderly manner from the pressure. But what factors do you think are involved in having such a sizeable army decide to give it up before ever even coming to grips with the enemy (me)?

[Vladimir]

I've had the same thing happen at least once. I was on a decent hill and was pounding away with my HAs when they decided to leave. No friendly casualties.

[DensterNY]

Ya, attacking with smaller and smaller armies is kinda like doing drugs, if you win. When you win it feels so good that you want to use fewer and fewer units until you're down to one unit of royal knights. Then you get the shakes.

I agree it is a good feeling especially when you just barely pull of a win by being sneaky and outmanuevering your enemy... As for the shakes, that's probably from staying up way too late playing MTW and drinking soda or coffee to keep yourself going... Hehe

[English assassin]

But what factors do you think are involved in having such a sizeable army decide to give it up before ever even coming to grips with the enemy (me)?

I don't know for a fact but I think if the casualty ratio gets too silly the AI abandons the battle, in the same way it can abandon it without fighting at all if it thinks you are way too powerful for it. And 200 kills for no losses at all is a sign that its losing badly.

Of course the trouble is, if I'm right, it takes no account of the fact that you would have run out of ammo and then things would get more evenly matched. But then the AI isn't that bright.

[antisocialmunky]

Perhaps I should have said lure - then we could have had a discussion about fishing!!
From the copious definitions, I was glad to see a mention of pointy sticks, cos it is well known in MTW that he with the most pointy sticks usually wins.

As I said, there is nothing like a good goad - or lure - you send your little unit of horse archers into a wood you know is full of bad guys and before you can rustle a few leaves, out pours a collection of troops all chasing your slightly surprised light cavalry. You wait patiently for them to bring the opposing army over to you as you sit quietly in a neat formation and when they arrive in a higgledy piggedly mess, you give them a short, sharp shock with your pointy sticks - game over

Technically to goad means to push, but push or pull as long as the enemy gets off the hill, it's a good thing.

[ajaxfetish]

I think the main distinction between a goad and a lure in this situation (both are being used metaphorically, of course), is that a goad would be used to irritate the enemy until they abandon their position in frustration, while a lure would be a seeming opportunity to tempt them to leave it. One is negative motivation, the other positive, but both with the same result.

Ajax

[Pericles]

But what factors do you think are involved in having such a sizeable army decide to give it up before ever even coming to grips with the enemy (me)?

You had a 6 star general vs a 2 star general for the AI, so this also plays a big role in deciding a battle.

Depending on what command stars your general had, such things as dread, fear, good defender, etc plays a big role in how your enemy perceives you.

[Vladimir]

You had a 6 star general vs a 2 star general for the AI, so this also plays a big role in deciding a battle.

Depending on what command stars your general had, such things as dread, fear, good defender, etc plays a big role in how your enemy perceives you.

Do we really need to go over dread again?

[Geezer57]

Do we really need to go over dread again?

Everyone here should know by now that dread has no effect on the tactical battlefield, only on the strategic map.

Back to the original thread - the AI had a watchtower in their province, so should have been able to determine what it was up against. Why make the attack at all if not to follow through? Or is the strategic AI not as bright as the tactical AI? Your thoughts, please.

[NodachiSam]

I've read there the AI thinks differently on the strategic map than on the tactical. One says "we should win this" and the other says, "uh oh this isn't going to work". I think numbers are more important to the map ai. Hmm, it is kind of like real life where sometimes the general knows better than the head honcho on the other side of the kingdom.

[sbroadbent]

It's all about maneuvering your units.

I had one battle against the Mongols in which I got them to give up the higher ground. Along one edge of the map was the hill with it getting steeper at the corner (to my right). I initially moved my units around to their left to gain some better positioning, and they began to move towards the corner and setup their defensive line. I moved my units forward along the side of the Hill, and eventually their units rather than holding their ground started back down the hill but still along the other side of the map. Eventually the high ground was clear, and eventually rushed my units the last bit up the hill and reestablished my lines. Once my archers began to start firing, is when they decided to attack me with them now coming up the hill. I charged my units down the hill to gain the advantage.

I've done this a few times. In another battle in which I had some Turcopoles I managed to get the entire enemy army to flee after I had used my Turcopoles to lure some of their units out of formation and with doing the HA dance, the AI decided they didn't want to deal with further casualties, and decided to turn and leave.

Then there was another battle in one of my earliest campaigns where I was fighting on a mostly flat wooded region. I setup my lines in loose formation and my armies must have looked larger than they wanted to deal with, and decided to flee without a single sword swung or arrow fired.