Spain orders arrest of US troops

[solypsist]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe...ers/index.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,172712,00.html

"MADRID, Spain — A judge has issued an international arrest warrant for three U.S. soldiers whose tank fired on a Baghdad hotel during the Iraq war, killing a Spanish journalist and one other, a court official said Wednesday.

Judge Santiago Pedraz issued the warrant for Sgt. Shawn Gibson, Capt. Philip Wolford and Lt. Col. Philip de Camp, all from the U.S. 3rd Infantry

Jose Couso, who worked for the Spanish television network Telecinco (search), died April 8, 2003, after a U.S. army tank crew fired a shell on Hotel Palestine (search) in Baghdad where several journalists were staying to cover the war.

Reuters cameraman Taras Portsyuk, a Ukrainian, also was killed.

The Spanish judge said he issued the arrest order because of a lack of judicial cooperation from the United States regarding the case.

U.S. officials insist the soldiers believed they were being shot at when they opened fire."


let's try this again.

with thanks to ShadeWolf for starting the original thread.

[PanzerJaeger]

las idiotas!

Are they trying to make themselves look weak and stupid, or is this all a joke?

[Papewaio]

If you see a lens in a building is it a laser targeter, scope or camera?

You have 0.5 seconds to make the decision or your crew is dead... feeling lucky punk?

[Crazed Rabbit]

And this is why we don't want anything to do with the International Crime Tribunal/whatever its called.

Crazed Rabbit

[Sjakihata]

las idiotas!

Are they trying to make themselves look weak and stupid, or is this all a joke?

you're talking about the soldiers surely?

And pape, to make that call is what they're trained for, so I dont pitty them, they wanted - and if they fail their job and KILL INNOCENT journalists heads are gonna roll, theirs...

[Taffy_is_a_Taff]

surely the Spanish courts don't have jurisdiction in Mesopotamia?

[PanzerJaeger]

Originally Posted by PanzerJager
las idiotas!

Are they trying to make themselves look weak and stupid, or is this all a joke?



you're talking about the soldiers surely?

Is that what you really think I was saying or are you just being a smart___?

[BDC]

You blow up a hotel full of foreign journalists, you are going to get consequences.

[Strike For The South]

were america we are above the law

[Azi Tohak]

You blow up a hotel full of foreign journalists, you are going to get consequences.

Isn't being in the firing line your own fault? Wow, journalists died. I'm sure you can find more under a rock somewhere. Heck, I think I just stepped on one on my way into my house!

I just think this is funny myself. As if you couldn't tell.

And Taffy, I think it is an international arrest warrant. Meaning it can go beyond the pond. Assuming anyone here cares.

Azi

[Xiahou]

You blow up a hotel full of foreign journalists, you are going to get consequences.

You know, many innocents die in war... just being a reporter doesn't confer any special rights/privileges/protections when it comes to that.

And good luck to that judge on enforcing that warrant.

And this is why we don't want anything to do with the International Crime Tribunal/whatever its called.

Yes, that's a perfect example, imo.

[Redleg]

From the previous thread -

Now this is politics at its worse.

So if the tank fired at the window which the servicemember believed that fire came from. Trying to hold the tank crew responsible for the death of a civilian in a war zone is one thing. but Why is the Battalion Commander and the Company commander being charged for the actions of the tank crew?

Politics and the desire to be seen as doing something in the eyes of the anti-United States crowd that is running around in Spain. I wonder if the Judge is going to run for public office?

Additional comments.

Now before someone says I am speaking out of my rear-end - as another member already pointed out. Spain does not have jurisdiction in Iraq The event happened in Iraq concerning a Tank Crew that fired at a hotel that contained journalists. The journalists were in the middle of the war zone. This particular charge is nothing but a political stunt on its face. When does Spain have jurisdiction of United States servicemen who might or might not have committed a crime against a spanish citizen in a nation away from the courts jurisdiction. Spainish courts only have jurisdiction in Spain for actions committed in Spain that violate Spanish Law. Under the European Union Charter, Spanish Courts might have jurisdiction over crimes committed by European Union members against Spanish citizens within the European Union. However this alledge crime was committed by soldiers of a nation not in the European Union in a hostile war zone that was known to the Spanish Citizen to be a war zone that was not on Spanish soil.

If Spain was interested in pursueing justice verus political games the prosecution would of filed the motions in the Iraqi Courts of the Interm government or in the International Court. (Which would of been ignored by the United States, but would of given the shown that the motives of the Spanish Judge was not politics but Justice.)

Futhermore by attempting to charge and have arrested individuals who could not have been in the tank at the time of the incident also smacks of politics - since the Judge could not have determined where the individuals were when and what their actions were when the actual tank round was fired.

Especially since I doubt very seriousily that the United States Army turned over any information to Spain concerning the investigation that it did not want to give the Spanish Government.

Yes indeed Politics at its worse. And again I suspect the Spanish Judge is looking at running for a political office.

[SwordsMaster]

Personally I can´t really blame the tank crew, I don´t believe they shot the journalists on purpose "Hey, Joe, look, the photographer of that magazine is aiming a camera at us again". "Oh, really? He´s been following us around all day, Pete. Blast him."

But I think it is amusing that the spaniards actually prosecuted the case and didn´t back down.

They do have apoint though. It was a known fact that a few journalists were staying in that hotel and probably other measures should have been taken. Blasting and then asking questions is a bit too wild west for the XXI century.

Under the European Union Charter, Spanish Courts might have jurisdiction over crimes committed by European Union members against Spanish citizens within the European Union. However this alledge crime was committed by soldiers of a nation not in the European Union in a hostile war zone that was known to the Spanish Citizen to be a war zone that was not on Spanish soil.

Ah, redleg, don´t even go there. What jusrisdiction do the US have in Iraq? and they are there, staging elections, prosecuting their president and all the rest of it, so I can´t accept your point.

I´m kinda waiting to see what the Pentagon answer is. This could just degenerate into a flame war....

I do not like the current spanish president, BTW. He thinks he is smart when he isn´t.

[Sjakihata]

Naturally they didnt do it on purpose - but the american attitude is "oh, they're soldiers, it's not their fault" just creates a reckless attitude amongst us soldiers, no matter how bizzare or stupid they behave (=how many innocent they kill/torture) they face NO consequences... WTF is that for bullshit??

[makkyo]

Not only that Redleg, but I didn't Spain decide to get completely out of the war after their last election? Why are they trying to involve themselves by pulling this stunt? I supose they withdrew everything except criticism.

[SwordsMaster]

Not only that Redleg, but I didn't Spain decide to get completely out of the war after their last election? Why are they trying to involve themselves by pulling this stunt? I supose they withdrew everything except criticism.

The fact that they retreated their soldiers doesn´t mean they retreated the news coverage... And it was announced on national tv that the case would be looked into right after it happened, so this is just a 2 years long court case.... Or maybe, they are right and the Pentagon just refused to collaborate...

[Redleg]

Ah, redleg, don´t even go there. What jusrisdiction do the US have in Iraq? and they are there, staging elections, prosecuting their president and all the rest of it, so I can´t accept your point.

Actually you might want to check out the Hague Conventions of 1907 - it provides the jurisdiction as the occuping power. So yes we can go there because the jurisdiction portion is valid on its face by international treaty that has been used in several conflicts. You can argue about the reasons for war - but on its face the occuping power has jurisdiction.

Since the United States Congress authorized the use of force against Iraq - our jurisdiction also applies to the occupation of Iraq.

Now if your wanting to argue that the conflict was not sanctioned by the United Nations - that is an arguement in itself. But the Hague Conventions of 1907 grants the occupying power legal jurisdiction over the nation that has had its government removed.

I´m kinda waiting to see what the Pentagon answer is. This could just degenerate into a flame war....

The pentagon will most likely ignore it - and let the State Department handle it.

I do not like the current spanish president, BTW. He thinks he is smart when he isn´t.

Again Politics at its worse.

[Redleg]

Naturally they didnt do it on purpose - but the american attitude is "oh, they're soldiers, it's not their fault" just creates a reckless attitude amongst us soldiers, no matter how bizzare or stupid they behave (=how many innocent they kill/torture) they face NO consequences... WTF is that for bullshit??

The problem is that some want soldiers held accountable for their actions outside of the Military Justice system. Until one shows evidence that the Military Justice system is corrupt and unable to handle such cases - the civilian authority can not just assume jurisdiction for a crime committed in uniform while performing a military mission.

[Redleg]

The fact that they retreated their soldiers doesn´t mean they retreated the news coverage... And it was announced on national tv that the case would be looked into right after it happened, so this is just a 2 years long court case.... Or maybe, they are right and the Pentagon just refused to collaborate...

or the Spanish Judge decided that he would not accept the answer provided by the United States to them.

[Sjakihata]

does the hague convention say anything about juristiction if the occupying power is the violating every established world community treaty?

At any rate, these treaties and convetions are good for nothing, except for occupying powers to hide behind.. instead of admitting what they are doing...namely invading by force to secure valuable assests

[SwordsMaster]

Actually you might want to check out the Hague Conventions of 1907 - it provides the jurisdiction as the occuping power. So yes we can go there because the jurisdiction portion is valid on its face by international treaty that has been used in several conflicts. You can argue about the reasons for war - but on its face the occuping power has jurisdiction.

Since the United States Congress authorized the use of force against Iraq - our jurisdiction also applies to the occupation of Iraq.

Now if your wanting to argue that the conflict was not sanctioned by the United Nations - that is an arguement in itself. But the Hague Conventions of 1907 grants the occupying power legal jurisdiction over the nation that has had its government removed.

You are correct. I see your point.

But then I could say that the spanish government IS the authority to be considered whenever the wellbeing of its citizens is in question. Which is the case. Who else would the photographer´s family go to?

So the government allowed the case to be prosecuted. Therefore it is legitimate as well... As I said: wait and see.

The pentagon will most likely ignore it - and let the State Department handle it.

Does your state department have jurisdiction over the army? I think the case will just get lost in some secretarial office and everyone will forget about it...until the next election.

or the Spanish Judge decided that he would not accept the answer provided by the United States to them.

Because the answer probably meant doing nothing...

[yesdachi]

Redleg - I completely appreciate your input on matters like this, thanks.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

does the hague convention say anything about juristiction if the occupying power is the violating every established world community treaty?

At any rate, these treaties and convetions are good for nothing, except for occupying powers to hide behind.. instead of admitting what they are doing...namely invading by force to secure valuable assests

What treaties established by the "world community" is the US breaking in an accidental incident?

And this - "namely invading by force to secure valuable assests" - is such a nice bit of something or other.

[Xiahou]

does the hague convention say anything about juristiction if the occupying power is the violating every established world community treaty?

If you'd list these treaties, we'd be happy to comment on them.

[Redleg]

does the hague convention say anything about juristiction if the occupying power is the violating every established world community treaty?

The Hague Convention only covers what is to happen once the conflict starts to the time period in which the conflict is settled between the two nations.

At any rate, these treaties and convetions are good for nothing, except for occupying powers to hide behind.. instead of admitting what they are doing...namely invading by force to secure valuable assests

So is the United Nations - do you really want to pursue that course of logical and reason?

[Erebus1101]

Making friends again ... I guess.
First withdrawing the troops, and now trying to investigate into something that doesn't concern us. Well one certainly could look at it that way but I have a different opinion.

If you see a lens in a building is it a laser targeter, scope or camera?

You have 0.5 seconds to make the decision or your crew is dead... feeling lucky punk?

So if the tank fired at the window which the servicemember believed that fire came from. Trying to hold the tank crew responsible for the death of a civilian in a war zone is one thing. but Why is the Battalion Commander and the Company commander being charged for the actions of the tank crew?

Things went like this:
Sergant Thomas Gibson certainly spoted first someone with lenses but he didn't make the decision in 0.5 secs, he waited 10 minutes for others to take the decision for him, namely capitan Wolford and coronel Philip de Camp. The later was the one who ultimately gave the order to shot.
So it says in today's "El Pais" (spanish newspapers) citing Los Angeles Times, and Le Nouvel Observateur interviews with those soldiers.

They defend themselves by saying they were being attacked but all witnesess (the reporters in Hotel Palestina) said nothing was going on, but suddenly the tank opened fire. I'am inclined to believe them as it was pretty well documented (they were filming all the day).

We must also take into consideration that the US military was fully informed that the in Hotel Palestina were journalists (and it was the very same pentagon who told all foreing press to go there so that they would be safe there).

Well it certainly doesn't make the US military look good, because as we all know deliberately killing journalists or civilians is a "delict against the International Community" (literally translated from spanish), and as far as I know Spanish Judges can prosecute anyone who comitted a crime against a national (...remembers pinochet...), of course as long as we have cooperation from the other country. Otherwise we can only fill charges and conduct a more or less complete investigation (and make us feel good).

So why did the judge issued the arrest warrant? the two previous attemps to get the US to collaborate didnt work so now they might get the message.

Yes indeed Politics at its worse. And again I suspect the Spanish Judge is looking at running for a political office.

I suspect he is just trying to do his job. If he wants a political office I think is is out of his mind, Do you think an spaniard would give up a 5000€ monthly (adjusted to the inflation) and a pension of the same amount free of taxes(also adjusted to the inflation) for an elusive political office?

[Redleg]

You are correct. I see your point.

And I understand the point about the conflict in general

But then I could say that the spanish government IS the authority to be considered whenever the wellbeing of its citizens is in question. Which is the case. Who else would the photographer´s family go to?

However it only has the legal jursidiction on the matters that happen in its nation - it can not determine its jursidiction on its one - that is a matter between nations. In this case the Judge has no legal jursidiction on the matter unless the citizens of Spain are attempting a civil suit for wrongful death. However they are seem to be pursueing a legal criminal charge which in beyond the Spanish Courts Jurisdiction.

So the government allowed the case to be prosecuted. Therefore it is legitimate as well... As I said: wait and see.

Actually it didnt according to the CNN article - the Judge acted on his own and his judgement is under review by the National Courts of Spain. I refer to the following quote from the CNN article.

And the National Court prosecutor's office said later Wednesday it would appeal the arrest warrant on the ground the magistrate has no jurisdiction in the case, Spanish news reports said.

It would seem to me that a Spanish Prosecutor in the National Court understand the law a little better then the magistrate now doesn't

Does your state department have jurisdiction over the army? I think the case will just get lost in some secretarial office and everyone will forget about it...until the next election.

THe military works for the Department of Defense which answers to the President. THe State Department handles many of the mistakes that the military makes by attempting to smooth the relationship with other nations. Or at least that is my understanding.

Because the answer probably meant doing nothing...

Hince the Political motivites of the Judge must be questioned.

[Xiahou]

(and it was the very same pentagon who told all foreing press to go there so that they would be safe there).

Id like to see where you're getting that from. The hotel was under Baathist control for the majority of the battle as I understand it. So, I can't understand why the Pentagon would direct reporters there.

From Feb27 2003:

• WARNING REPORTERS: The Pentagon Thursday warned major news organizations that their reporters based in Baghdad are in far more danger than in 1991, because the U.S. bombing of Iraq, if it comes, would be far more devastating. In a meeting at the Pentagon, Washington bureau chiefs were told the U.S. military could not guarantee the safety of journalists who decided to remain in the Iraqi capital in the event of war, and also could not guarantee another warning before any military action begins.

link

[GoreBag]

Eh. Catch 'em if you can.

[Erebus1101]

Id like to see where you're getting that from. The hotel was under Baathist control for the majority of the battle as I understand it. So, I can't understand why the Pentagon would direct reporters there.

Local news and newspapers.
The events took place in april 2003, and by that time that area of baghdad was under control of the US.