Spain orders arrest of US troops

[GoreBag]

State the source, please? I was always taught that it wasn't.

[HarunTaiwan]

An embedded reporter was with the US unit and she back up their version. They were under fire and thought it was coming from that building.

They did not know it was the Palestine hotel. Do Europeans honestly believe US forces would want to kill a Spanish cameraman? Oh, maybe I could believe they were aiming for Peter Arnett and missed?

If this is how Europeans feel, then I can't wait till they send every last French soldier who shot at civilians (oh, they claim some were armed) in a crowd in Cote D'Ivoire back there for trial and punishment. Also, this was witnessed by Swiss residents in the hotel and there is video.

What? You won't send those guys to Ivory Coast for trial? Why not?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Actually, the general commanding the troops in Cote d'Ivoire has been demoted (along with a colonel, and a few others); they face murder charge in France.

So we do care about that kind of business, thanks and we don't let it stop at private.

And it's a lot of noise about nothing: I think all the judge wants is some kind of answers from US authorities, not really arresting the GIs. It's a 2years case, and after being ignored for 2 years, he just moved on the next option.

If the US were a little bit more forthcoming in sharing their investigation with the Spanish judge, he would be able to go back to claimant and tell them justice is underway in the US... Since he can't say that, he got to do something.

Louis,

[Brutus]

I don't see what you are all worrying about. Surely your American Congress will put down some nice magical legislation trick that makes it legal for the US to invade one of its allies to 'liberate' American citizens held captive by a war tribunal? That's how they settled a possible problem with the International Tribunal in The Hague, didn't they?

Would be kinda interesting to see American GI's invading the tourist beaches of Scheveningen or the Costa del Sol and taking the local prison by force though...

[Ser Clegane]

Quite frankly, I hope the first idiot who tries to arrest them gets a warning shot, and wisely decides to go back home to Spain.

Do you think somebody is going to come to the US to arrest them?

This whole thing has more symbolic character - it shows that the court in Spain is trying all it can to bring this case forward:

- the judge asked the Pentagpon for cooperation
- he offered to come to the US and question the tank crew there
- as nothing happened, the judge draws the last option - as the soldiers do not appear before court to be questioned, he orders an arrest to force them to do so (which seems like pretty normal procedure in any court case)

Nobody will arrest these guys in the US - should they set foot on Spain (something they obviously won't do) they could be arrested to force them to appear before court.

The judge did his job (unlike the Italian authorities in the cable car incident a couple of years ago) and the family of the journalist sees that their court system to not withdraw for political reasons.

The question here whether the soldiers were justified to fire at the hotel is excactly the discussion the judge in Spain is trying to answer - keep in mind that the tankls crew has not been convicted in Spain.

[Papewaio]

State the source, please? I was always taught that it wasn't.

Verbs are actions and feelings.

You can be disrespectul to someone (the action) and/or you can feel disrespect for a person.

I disrespect Nazis. That is a legitmate sentence and all sentences have a verb... verbs are to sentences what vowels are to words. So which is the verb?
I or disrespect or Nazis?

[Major Robert Dump]

If I Were The Soldiers I Would Go To Spain And Turn Myself In Because Then I Would Get Free Room And Board And Telemundo And I Wouldn't Have To Work, And Since I Wouldn't Be Convicted It Would Be Cool Because Then I Would Get Out And Come Home. Vacation.

[Kanamori]

'Disrespect' is a transitive verb, perhaps that's where the confusion is. If it has no object, it is non-sensical.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

State the source, please? I was always taught that it wasn't.

Until about 1990, you would have been correct. The verb form of the word crept into general usage following its adoption/broad use by the quote/unquote "hip-hop" subculture. So you may well have been taught that it was improper usage by a "purist" only to have mass culture supercede this.

If you want a language where no such changes occur, try a dead one like Latin. English is still alive and changing, quod erat demonstratum.

[Devastatin Dave]

Do you think somebody is going to come to the US to arrest them?

This whole thing has more symbolic character - it shows that the court in Spain is trying all it can to bring this case forward:

- the judge asked the Pentagpon for cooperation
- he offered to come to the US and question the tank crew there
- as nothing happened, the judge draws the last option - as the soldiers do not appear before court to be questioned, he orders an arrest to force them to do so (which seems like pretty normal procedure in any court case)

Nobody will arrest these guys in the US - should they set foot on Spain (something they obviously won't do) they could be arrested to force them to appear before court.

The judge did his job (unlike the Italian authorities in the cable car incident a couple of years ago) and the family of the journalist sees that their court system to not withdraw for political reasons.

The question here whether the soldiers were justified to fire at the hotel is excactly the discussion the judge in Spain is trying to answer - keep in mind that the tankls crew has not been convicted in Spain.

In typical European fashion; everythings symbolic and no action.

[Goofball]

In typical European fashion; everythings symbolic and no action.

Much like U.S. diplomats talking about concepts like "peace" and "security" as Dubya sits in his throne room deciding who to bomb next.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Deleted.

[Ser Clegane]

In typical European fashion; everythings symbolic and no action.

I know - you would prefer an administration that would send out an invasion force to hunt down these three guys and blow up their neighbours in the process of doing so (of course afterwards it would turn out that you might have to drop the charges against those three).


j/k



... no ... wait

[Meneldil]

I find liberal people's comments to be much funnier than their conservative counterpart.

Anyway, the judge is doing is job, and although probably nothing will happen, someone seriously screwed up his job, and should be blamed.

Still, I wonder why most of the journalists killed during a conflict are killed by american troops, who are supposed to be on the good side.

[Redleg]

Still, I wonder why most of the journalists killed during a conflict are killed by american troops, who are supposed to be on the good side.

Could it be that they position themselves next to the enemy to get a camera shot?

Reporting a war from the war zone intermixing yourself with the combatants is a dangerous thing.

[Adrian II]

Still, I wonder why most of the journalists killed during a conflict are killed by american troops, who are supposed to be on the good side.

The U.S. Army has developed a track record of killing non-embedded journalists, both Americans and foreigners. It wants journalists to be embedded in order to control their movements, contacts and perspective. It makes life generally difficult and sometimes miserable for non-embeds and I suspect that in some cases they are intentionally targeted. This shooting of a hotel full of non-embeds is very suspicious indeed; it is part of a pattern and it should be fully investigated by another institution than the one primarily responsible for the shooting.

I find it amusing that some American posters reacted so incredulously to the report about the Spanish arrest warrants, and immediately came up with improvised arguments that the soldiers must have been innocent, that the Spanish judge must be out of order and that the warrants must be politically motivated. I could state with equal force that the shooting of the Spanish journalist must have been politically motivated, and I would be equally wrong.

Dutch authorities recently arrested an Angolan peace negotiator named Membe on Dutch soil at the request of the United States, because Membe is being accused in the U.S. of having been involved in the kidnapping of an American twenty-five years ago. The terms of Mr Membe's possible transfer to the U.S. are now being negociated. The kid-napping took place twenty-five years ago in the midst of a civil war where the American had no business being, and the only indication of Mr Membe's alleged involvement with the kidnappers is that he seems to have been the boy who brought the kidnapped American his food and some outside messages.

Yet, we consider the case on its merits because that is part and parcel of the civilised discourse between nations. I reckon Mr Membe, surviving as a youth in the midst of a civil conflict that makes the American Civil War look like a convent, had to make some 'split-second decisions' in his lifetime as well. But some decision just don't stand up to scrutiny.

[Devastatin Dave]

I know - you would prefer an administration that would send out an invasion force to hunt down these three guys and blow up their neighbours in the process of doing so (of course afterwards it would turn out that you might have to drop the charges against those three).


j/k



... no ... wait

Muhhahahahaha!!!

**rubs hand together with sn evil smile on dace***

[solypsist]

http://www.rehumanize.us/journalists.html

i referenced this with the intent to demonstrate that reporters killed by US troops (direct or indirect) was low, at least i believed it to be so.

7 out of 19 (on this list) were killed by Americans. this is unfortunate; that's almost one-third.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Do you think somebody is going to come to the US to arrest them?

This whole thing has more symbolic character - it shows that the court in Spain is trying all it can to bring this case forward:

- the judge asked the Pentagpon for cooperation
- he offered to come to the US and question the tank crew there
- as nothing happened, the judge draws the last option - as the soldiers do not appear before court to be questioned, he orders an arrest to force them to do so (which seems like pretty normal procedure in any court case)

Nobody will arrest these guys in the US - should they set foot on Spain (something they obviously won't do) they could be arrested to force them to appear before court.

The judge did his job (unlike the Italian authorities in the cable car incident a couple of years ago) and the family of the journalist sees that their court system to not withdraw for political reasons.

The question here whether the soldiers were justified to fire at the hotel is excactly the discussion the judge in Spain is trying to answer - keep in mind that the tankls crew has not been convicted in Spain.

Does Spain have the authority to order their arrest though, considering the death of the journalist wasn't on Spanish territory. If I kill someone in Mexico, Canada can't order my arrest for it, to be tried in Canada, AFAIK. Either way, nothing is going to happen to the crew, lest Spain wants some infrastructure damage.

Edit: 1/3 is very low, soly, considering most nations only have a few thousand men there, we sent in over 250,000.

[Ser Clegane]

Either way, nothing is going to happen to the crew, lest Spain wants some infrastructure damage.

I think you have been watching too many cartoons on TV lately...

[Redleg]

The U.S. Army has developed a track record of killing non-embedded journalists, both Americans and foreigners. It wants journalists to be embedded in order to control their movements, contacts and perspective. It makes life generally difficult and sometimes miserable for non-embeds and I suspect that in some cases they are intentionally targeted. This shooting of a hotel full of non-embeds is very suspicious indeed; it is part of a pattern and it should be fully investigated by another institution than the one primarily responsible for the shooting.

An investigation by both the Military and Committee to Protect Journalists has been conducted - and seemly discounted by the judge in Spain and you. An accusation based upon emotion does not equate to delibrate targeting of journalists. Unfortunate circumstances and the desire to report from the front lines lead to the deaths of many of the journalists - and some were unfortunate accidents like the events around the Palestine Hotel.

I find it amusing that some American posters reacted so incredulously to the report about the Spanish arrest warrants, and immediately came up with improvised arguments that the soldiers must have been innocent, that the Spanish judge must be out of order and that the warrants must be politically motivated. I could state with equal force that the shooting of the Spanish journalist must have been politically motivated, and I would be equally wrong.

Oh but the arrest warrant is politically motivated regardless of what you believe to be right or wrong. Just look at how the Spanish Public Prosecutor reacted to the filing of the arrest warrants.

And the National Court prosecutor's office said later Wednesday it would appeal the arrest warrant on the ground the magistrate has no jurisdiction in the case, Spanish news reports said.

Two investigations have been conducted one by the Military of the United States - and one by the Committe to Protect Journalists come to basically the same conclusion that the Hotel was not delibrately targeted. Even look at your comments show that your jumping to conclusions that are not there faster then the ones you are attempting to blame.

Dutch authorities recently arrested an Angolan peace negotiator named Membe on Dutch soil at the request of the United States, because Membe is being accused in the U.S. of having been involved in the kidnapping of an American twenty-five years ago. The terms of Mr Membe's possible transfer to the U.S. are now being negociated. The kid-napping took place twenty-five years ago in the midst of a civil war where the American had no business being, and the only indication of Mr Membe's alleged involvement with the kidnappers is that he seems to have been the boy who brought the kidnapped American his food and some outside messages.

Yet, we consider the case on its merits because that is part and parcel of the civilised discourse between nations. I reckon Mr Membe, surviving as a youth in the midst of a civil conflict that makes the American Civil War look like a convent, had to make some 'split-second decisions' in his lifetime as well. But some decision just don't stand up to scrutiny.

Oh look attempting to place another judgement in the discussion, and speaking of merits - I guess you wish to ignore what a journalist group has to say about the Palestine Hotel?

On this particlur issue has a previous investigation by a governemental agency determined that no crime has been conducted by the individaul. Not just an official investigation but also a private one, has determined the same conclusion. Attempting to compare situations and leaving out the critical piece that two investigations have been done and both show that no willful violation of the laws of war, nor the deliberate targeting of journalists was done.

Speaking of Hyperbole - next you will want to bring me up on Murder Charges for my particaption in Desert Storm.

[Adrian II]

http://www.rehumanize.us/journalists.html

i referenced this with the intent to demonstrate that reporters killed by US troops (direct or indirect) was low, at least i believed it to be so.

7 out of 19 (on this list) were killed by Americans. this is unfortunate; that's almost one-third.

According to the IFJ, there are 18 deaths of journalists and media staff at the hands of US soldiers since the invasion of Iraq that still require proper investigation. And I was not just talking of Iraq, because the track record of unaccounted for U.S. 'media killings' goes back at least to the 1999 Kosovo war. The bombings of neutral media offices would be part of the pattern.

http://www.ifj.org/default.asp?index=3429&Language=EN

[Ronin]

Does Spain have the authority to order their arrest though, considering the death of the journalist wasn't on Spanish territory. If I kill someone in Mexico, Canada can't order my arrest for it, to be tried in Canada, AFAIK. Either way, nothing is going to happen to the crew, lest Spain wants some infrastructure damage.

Edit: 1/3 is very low, soly, considering most nations only have a few thousand men there, we sent in over 250,000.

that´s funny......considering that just the other day someone pointed out in this board that the US government claims the right to prosecute for crimes involving it´s citizens outside of the united states......

what´s good for the goose.....

[Adrian II]

Two investigations have been conducted, one by the Military of the United States - and one by the Committe to Protect Journalists (..)

Yes, I am aware of it. We have one report from the U.S. Military (the perpetrator, hardly a credible judge) and one from the CPJ based solely on reporters' accounts. After the CPJ filed a FOA request for the Army report and got a sanitised version of it in early 2004, they were very disappointed. 'The failure of the U.S. military to provide an honest and open accounting of what occurred keeps alive questions about whether U.S. forces are taking the necessary steps to avoid endangering journalists' (CPJ executive director Ann Cooper).

I mean: come on, earlier in the morning of that same April 8th, the U.S. bombed the Al-Jazeera office in Bagdad (just like they had bombed the Al-Jazeera office in Kabul two years before) and killed their cameraman; half an hour later an American tank intentionally destroyed the Abu Dhabi TV office, and half an hour after that it fired at the Palestine and killed another two non-embedded journalists. That is a bit rich for a coincidence. I think Eason Jordan may have had a point when he remarked (during the Davos Forum 2005) that U.S. forces deliberately target journalists. This has to be investigated and the fact that the United States are not cooperating does not release other people from their obligations.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

that´s funny......considering that just the other day someone pointed out in this board that the US government claims the right to prosecute for crimes involving it´s citizens outside of the united states......

what´s good for the goose.....

Is Spain the US, and did Spain claim this right? If so, fine, they can *try*, but we won't cooperate for a casualty of war, but if not, then their grounds for this are unfounded.

The infrastructure damage was a joke, CAN'T YOU BLOODY SOCIALISTS TAKE A BLOODY JOKE? Apparently not, *whistles* we won the cold war though

So what if a journalist dies, he's in a combat zone, he's at risk. He should know this, and if his death means more US Soldiers living, he's expendable.

[SwordsMaster]

Is Spain the US, and did Spain claim this right? If so, fine, they can *try*, but we won't cooperate for a casualty of war, but if not, then their grounds for this are unfounded.

The infrastructure damage was a joke, CAN'T YOU BLOODY SOCIALISTS TAKE A BLOODY JOKE? Apparently not, *whistles* we won the cold war though

So what if a journalist dies, he's in a combat zone, he's at risk. He should know this, and if his death means more US Soldiers living, he's expendable.

Except that it is the soldier´s job to die, when it isn´t the journalist´s...

[Adrian II]

*whistles* we won the cold war though

No, the mujahedeen did that. And they are winning their next war as we speak...

Just joking, just joking.

[Devastatin Dave]

No, the mujahedeen did that. And they are winning their next war as we speak...

Just joking, just joking.

In a way I hope they do. I'd love to see what these kind peaceful muslims would do to the likes of the Netherlands and persons such as yourself. I bet, just between your 5 prayers a day, you'll wish those Ameircans you hated so much in your former life had succeded. Maybe we'll see, maybe we won't. Eurabia will determine that.

[Adrian II]

In a way I hope they do. I'd love to see what these kind peaceful muslims would do to the likes of the Netherlands and persons such as yourself. I bet, just between your 5 prayers a day, you'll wish those Ameircans you hated so much in your former life had succeded. Maybe we'll see, maybe we won't. Eurabia will determine that.

By that time I'll be banned by this forum's right-leaning mods anyway. I'll start my own guerilla, lobbing Edam cheeses into the American embassy in The Hague.
'Keell de Americans. Alhamdullilah!'
Ka-schluck!

[Papewaio]

Ohhh I love Edam! I would have to camp out in the American Embassy claiming to be a refugee in the Netherlands just so I can get free Edam!

Had a neighbour who made cheese the traditional Netherlands whey in NZ, huge smelly round pieces of cheese. Some of which had a rind so hard that it felt like a car tyre. But the taste.