Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 38

Thread: Birth of a Nation?

  1. #1
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Birth of a Nation?

    Birth of a Nation?
    Iraq is still a mess, but today's election was a dramatic step in the right direction.
    By Fred Kaplan
    Posted Sunday, Jan. 30, 2005, at 1:04 PM PT


    Few sights are more stirring than the televised images of Iraqi citizens risking their lives to vote in their country's first election in a half-century, kissing the ballot boxes, dancing in the streets, and declaring their hopes for a new day of democracy.

    And yet, the challenges and uncertainties that seemed so daunting last week—about Iraq's security, society, and governance—are unlikely to turn less daunting next week, next month, or the month after.

    Yes, as President Bush said in his address this afternoon, the Iraqi people showed the world they want freedom. But this has never been in doubt. The real questions of democracy are what people want to do with that freedom, whether their contesting desires and interests can be mediated by a political order, and whether they view that political order as legitimate. Voting for leaders is a vital but very early step in this process.


    Nearly all of the moving TV footage was taken in southern Iraq, the stronghold of Shiite Muslims, where Sunni insurgents lack a base of operation and where, therefore, turnout was expected to be high. The picture was more mixed in Baghdad (though, according to some reports, many more people voted than had been anticipated) and quite dismal in Sunni-dominated areas. (Just 5 percent voted in Fallujah, and commentators were surprised the number wasn't lower still.)

    The election was held to select an assembly that will, above all other tasks, write a constitution. Shiites, who comprise 60 percent of Iraq's population, were inevitably going to win a majority in this assembly. Given the wide disparity in turnout, they will dominate it.

    The precise results won't be known for days, perhaps weeks. But the vast bulk of votes will probably be split between two Shiite parties—the slate led by Acting Prime Minister Iyad Allawi and the coalition put together by the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. Much depends on whether the winners reach out to the dispossessed Sunnis and let them have some say on the constitution's provisions—as well as shared access to the country's wealth. (Iraq's oil is concentrated in the Shiite south and the Kurdish north; hardly any graces the "Sunni triangle.") If Sunni leaders see they have something to gain by joining the new Iraqi order, they might be less willing to harbor insurgents. If they get nothing out of the deal, chaos will likely continue.

    Much will also rest on the outcome of the struggle within the Shiite parties, specifically between the religious and secular factions. If the constitution imposes Muslim law too insistently, the Kurds—who comprise another 20 percent of the population, many of them Christians—may move toward secession. The Kurds, who also voted in very large numbers, elected not only a national slate but a regional assembly. Thanks to protection from U.S. air power, they have enjoyed a certain autonomy from Baghdad for the past decade, and they are not likely to surrender it just because Saddam Hussein is gone; they too need some assurances and rewards before they settle in to a Shiite-majority regime. The Turkish government, which has periodic problems with its own Kurdish minority, has warned that it will not tolerate an independent Iraqi Kurdistan on its southern border.

    Whatever political arrangements are devised, they cannot be maintained without a stable social order. Security forces—American, British, and Iraqi—kept order fairly well today. Only a few dozen Iraqi citizens were killed by suicide bombers—far, far fewer than many feared. But the Election Day ban on motor vehicles—a measure that sharply reduced the incidence of terrorist attacks—can't be extended. There is little question that attacks will soon resume.

    President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice may say that Iraq has 140,000 security forces, but U.S. military officers in the region concede that only about 10,000 have been trained or equipped. Anthony Cordesman, a well-briefed military analyst who has been to Iraq many times and has written several studies for the Center for Strategic and International Studies, estimates that only about 4,500 are capable of fighting effectively on their own. Only in the past few weeks has the Bush administration shifted the resources necessary to mount a serious training effort.

    The upshot of all this is that if President Bush means it when he says U.S. troops will stay in Iraq until its new leaders can provide for their own security, then we are going to stay there for years.

    A sure consequence of the election's success will be the derailing of any movement in the U.S. Congress to push for a swift troop withdrawal. In his State of the Union Address this week, President Bush will probably say that we cannot desert the Iraqis after their brave display of commitment to freedom. And he will be right. If the new Iraqi government wants the U.S. troops to leave, then they will. But in the past couple of weeks, all the major Iraqi political parties removed from their platforms any endorsement of a withdrawal. They realize that they still need foreign troops both for internal security and for the defense of their borders.

    One can hope that President Bush will use the election to prod his own bureaucracy into action. According to the State Department's own figures, the U.S. government is still pathetically slow when it comes to Iraq's reconstruction. Congress has appropriated $18.4 billion in aid for that task, but as of Jan. 19, 2005, just $2.7 billion of that sum has actually been disbursed.

    In other words, along many avenues of Iraq's journey to democracy (or wherever it's headed), there are many, many miles to go.

    And yet, is it too romantic to see signs of real hope in today's election? One thing is clear: The day marked a terrible defeat for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who had declared democracy to be an "infidel" belief. He and his goons passed out leaflets threatening to kill anyone and everyone who dared to vote; they dramatized their threat by killing dozens of police and poll workers in the days leading up to the election. And yet millions of Iraqis—including a fairly large number of Sunnis who live in Shiite areas—defied their fears and voted. Whatever mayhem they inflict in the coming days, it will be hard for anyone to interpret their actions as reflecting the beliefs of "the street."

    In the week before the election, several Sunni leaders said they want to participate in the constitutional process in any case. Do these leaders now regret their calls for a boycott of the election? Seeing how badly Zarqawi failed in his effort to halt or disrupt the election, will they now work more vigilantly to pursue their cause peacefully and to separate their nationalist followers from the foreign terrorists in their midst?

    Finally, imagine a Syrian watching Al-Arabiya, seeing Iraqi-born Syrians going to special polling places to elect Iraqi leaders, observing that no Syrians of any sort have the right to elect the leaders of Syria—and perhaps asking himself, "Why?" It is not inconceivable that this flicker of democratic practice in Iraq could ignite a flame of some sort across the Middle East. To what end, and for ultimate good or ill, who knows. But something happened in Iraq today, something not only dramatic and stirring but perhaps also very big.

    Yet some say were losing and it wasnt worth it.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  2. #2
    German Enthusiast Member Alexanderofmacedon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Where Columbus condemned the natives
    Posts
    3,124

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    You completely confuse me with these kinds of posts...


  3. #3
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Well it seem you are easily confued. What would you like me to explain?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  4. #4
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    'Birth of three nations' would be more apt. That seems to be the main reason why some Iraqis are kissing ballot boxes, particularly those with friends across the eastern border. Americans should be kissing them too, because this referendum gives their country a proper excuse to leave.

    Did you read Brzezinki's critique of George Bush's 'suicidal statecraft' yet?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  5. #5
    German Enthusiast Member Alexanderofmacedon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Where Columbus condemned the natives
    Posts
    3,124

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Well it seem you are easily confued. What would you like me to explain?
    LOL, that's funny...Nevermind


  6. #6
    agitated Member master of the puppets's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    where destruction lay around me from a fight i could not win
    Posts
    1,224

    Talking Re: Birth of a Nation?

    screw what the media says gawain we are not losing, i just hope this system works.
    A nation of sheep will beget a a government of wolves. Edward R. Murrow

    Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. —1 John 2:9

  7. #7
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Searching for the ORG's lost honor
    Posts
    4,657

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Okay, I'll bite...what's the point of posting this January article now?
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

  8. #8
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,812

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    Okay, I'll bite...what's the point of posting this January article now?
    My thoughts exactly, lol
    Maybe he meant to link to an article about the referendum, like this one

  9. #9
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    My thoughts exactly, lol
    Maybe he meant to link to an article about the referendum, like this one
    Yes exactly. I was in a rush going outthe door and grabbed a quick article on votng in Iraq. My bad. Thanks for posting what I was looking for.
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  10. #10
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    7,552

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    And the Left wept....
    RIP Tosa

  11. #11
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,902

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Yet some say were losing and it wasnt worth it.
    We'll know if it was worth it about 2010.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

  12. #12
    Member Member bmolsson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    3,029

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Of course, Iraq is a big win, especially for Halliburton....

  13. #13
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    818

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    The Kurds I saw on the news regarded the vote as a first step toward an independent Kurdish state.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  14. #14
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,868

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  15. #15

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyspy
    I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......
    This should be in front room, in "What is in your hand.. yes right now!!!" thread

  16. #16
    Member Member Spetulhu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    818

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slyspy
    I hold in my hand a piece of paper.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartix
    This should be in front room, in "What is in your hand.. yes right now!!!" thread
    No, it's a Back Room thing. The Front Room doesn't want to know that Slyspy surfs the net on his portable while sitting on the toilet.
    If you're fighting fair you've made a miscalculation.

  17. #17
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,868

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    LOL!

    But that kind of paper would at least be useful. The piece of paper to which I am referring was, of course, utterly useless.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

  18. #18

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdrianII
    'Birth of three nations' would be more apt.
    Sure. You can view it that way. Just like the Articles of Confederation doomed these United States to a future with no sense of nationhood. But the founders saw this and drafted the Constitution.

    But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation. Similarly, you would be wrong in stating that federalism coupled with ethnic disparity will produce three seperate countries. Further, a perspective of regional autonomy or even regional conscienceness is ignorant of a historical Iraqi national identity.

    It is true that power is divided amongst varying government institutions, be it provincial, regional, or federal. However, one must remember that Iraqi federalism holds a supremacy clause similar to the U.S. Constitution.

    The bottom line is that in the new Iraq sovereignty rests with the body of people, and the power to govern is granted through the will of the people. How this power is distributed through the provincial, regional, and federal entities is for the people to decide. Something, it seems, they have done. Together. As one nation.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  19. #19
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Halifax NewScotland Canada
    Posts
    4,114

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Sure. You can view it that way. Just like the Articles of Confederation doomed these United States to a future with no sense of nationhood. But the founders saw this and drafted the Constitution.

    But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation. Similarly, you would be wrong in stating that federalism coupled with ethnic disparity will produce three seperate countries. Further, a perspective of regional autonomy or even regional conscienceness is ignorant of a historical Iraqi national identity.

    It is true that power is divided amongst varying government institutions, be it provincial, regional, or federal. However, one must remember that Iraqi federalism holds a supremacy clause similar to the U.S. Constitution.

    The bottom line is that in the new Iraq sovereignty rests with the body of people, and the power to govern is granted through the will of the people. How this power is distributed through the provincial, regional, and federal entities is for the people to decide. Something, it seems, they have done. Together. As one nation.
    Your working on a number of assumptions that may not be true.
    1.That the Iraqi's have a sense of national identity, I've seen little to suggest that they do. If there was one it was a Sunni ideal.
    2.That the 3 major Iraqi groups can/want to work together to build a real Iraqi national identity. Sure they talk about it while they kill each other.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

    VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

    I came, I saw, I kicked ass

  20. #20

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by lars573
    Your working on a number of assumptions that may not be true.
    1.That the Iraqi's have a sense of national identity, I've seen little to suggest that they do. If there was one it was a Sunni ideal.
    2.That the 3 major Iraqi groups can/want to work together to build a real Iraqi national identity. Sure they talk about it while they kill each other.
    I see much of this in the media. You propose challenges and see failure without offering solutions or hope.

    Are you of the mindset that says, "They can't govern themselves. They need a Dictator to keep them in line."?

    I believe they can. And I believe they will. And I believe our current course of action is the best possioble solution, regardless of how difficult the entire situation is to digest. Iraq is a strategic imperative, vital to the future of global stability. As President Truman once said, "we fight not for conquest, but for the peace of all mankind". (or something very very close) This remains true today, despite what destructive conspiracies flood the internet.
    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Backroom is the Crackroom.

  21. #21
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    OKRAHOMER
    Posts
    7,424

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Darn, I was hoping to see a thread about the movie. Throwing that thing on is a good way to kill a party, not that I'd know
    Baby Quit Your Cryin' Put Your Clown Britches On!!!

  22. #22
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Halifax NewScotland Canada
    Posts
    4,114

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    I see much of this in the media. You propose challenges and see failure without offering solutions or hope.
    I had to go to bed and couldn't then think of a solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    Are you of the mindset that says, "They can't govern themselves. They need a Dictator to keep them in line."?
    More like they have no experience in governing themselfs. And all they've ever had is dictators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    I believe they can. And I believe they will. And I believe our current course of action is the best possioble solution, regardless of how difficult the entire situation is to digest. Iraq is a strategic imperative, vital to the future of global stability. As President Truman once said, "we fight not for conquest, but for the peace of all mankind". (or something very very close) This remains true today, despite what destructive conspiracies flood the internet.
    And I believe that the US course of action was and always will be the right thing, executed so poorly that it can only end badly. The Iraqi's should have goten rid of the dictators themselfs. Then it would actually seem like an accomplishment instead of exchanging one foregin overlord for another.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

    VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

    I came, I saw, I kicked ass

  23. #23
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
    But I would be incorrect to parallel the Iraqi Constitution to the Articles of Confederation.
    Indeed, the comparison is entirely fruitless. One major difference that immediately springs to mind is that the U.S. legislative was never split along ethnic lines, whereas the Iraqi Parliament is made up almost exclusively of ethnic parties. The Iraqi coalition government too is the result of extra-parliamentary ethnic power-broking. Etcetera, etcetera.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  24. #24
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Why not make is a federalised country?

    Find out the population of the smallest ethnic group of the main three. Divide it in say two. Yes that as the population number for the size of the states.

    Proceed from there.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  25. #25
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Or be mature enough to admit that there is huge ethnic differences and let them become self governed countries... try and do it better then the Pakistan/India division.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  26. #26
    Very Senior Member Gawain of Orkeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Centereach NY
    Posts
    13,763

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Isnt Turkey the fly in the oinment when it comes to an independant Kurdish state?
    Fighting for Truth , Justice and the American way

  27. #27
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Well they will probably just do what they did with the Greeks...

    Or seriously they can say you can stay in Turkey and be a Turkish Kurd or you can go south into the independent state and be a New Iraqi Kurd. The choice is yours. However under no circumstances can the Kurdish state take any Turkish land. That last bit should be backed by the US, NATO and the UN.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  28. #28
    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Halifax NewScotland Canada
    Posts
    4,114

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Well they will probably just do what they did with the Greeks...
    You mean when the Kurds try and take the parts of Turkey that they consider theirs. The Turks smack them back hard and boot out any Kurd that won't swear alligance to Turkey. That may have worked for like 2 million Greeks in 1923 but I doubt it would work for like 10 million Kurds now.
    If you havin' skyrim problems I feel bad for you son.. I dodged 99 arrows but my knee took one.

    VENI, VIDI, NATES CALCE CONCIDI

    I came, I saw, I kicked ass

  29. #29
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    That is why I added the serious bit.

    Give them the option to stay or go... it is much like the division of Pakistan and India...
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  30. #30
    Alienated Senior Member Member Red Harvest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Searching for the ORG's lost honor
    Posts
    4,657

    Default Re: Birth of a Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
    Isnt Turkey the fly in the oinment when it comes to an independant Kurdish state?
    There are a lot of flies in the ointment. Turkey is the big one, but quite a few others don't want to see a Kurdish state either. It has looked inevitable to me since the 1st war with Iraq. This is a case where I suspect we would do best to accept the inevitable, and make the best of it, rather than fighting it.

    The concept in the 1st War and its aftermath was whacked. We had no choice but to smackdown Saddam. However, in doing so we tried to walk a tight rope for "stability's sake." So we settled for a hasty ceasefire, leaving Saddam free to deal with uprisings, rather than doing the right thing helping them along to topple his regime. Result: we have to go in again...and this time there is even less interest by the Iraqis in holding the nation together. Perhaps, they will see some common interest in uniting, but right now it appears they fear each other more than any external force.

    Bush Sr. could see the 1st part of needing to deal with Saddam, but couldn't bring himself to accept the consequences/opportunities. Ditto for Dubya. Saddam lit more than one fuse when he invaded Kuwait.
    Rome Total War, it's not a game, it's a do-it-yourself project.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO