heroic sagas

**Steppe Merc** · 10-24-2005, 00:18

Tolkien's works are considered a saga? In that case, its my favorite one. I love it. Great stuff. Rohhirrim are deffiently the most interesting. Not the nicest fellows, but certaintly amongst the bravest, and anyone who loves horses gets my vote.

And what does Shahnameh mean? King what?

**Mouzafphaerre** · 10-24-2005, 05:59

Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Tolkien's works are considered a saga? In that case, its my favorite one. I love it. Great stuff. Rohhirrim are deffiently the most interesting. Not the nicest fellows, but certaintly amongst the bravest, and anyone who loves horses gets my vote.

And what does Shahnameh mean? King what?

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Shahnameh (شهنامه): The book of kings. Starting from the creation of man, coming to the end of the Sasanids. 99% legendary (with kings ruling for n-thousand years, Rostem singlehandedly destroying an army of 30,000[?] etc.) and partly transported from Vedic sources (the story of Dahhak) but most fun reading, especially in Firdowsi's pen (which ingeniously camouflages the Zaraostrianist backbone with a fake Islamic flavour

), even beneath a dry translation.

Why shouldn't Tolkien be considered saga? Does it have to be of anonymous origin? IMO no. Traditional sagas were also artwork in their origin, later mutating through multiple anonymous hands. In Tolkien's case, the process is backwards (traditional material stylized by an artist) not much unlike the Shahnameh or Kalavela.

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**Kalle** · 10-24-2005, 10:58

Why shouldn't Tolkien be considered saga? Does it have to be of anonymous origin? IMO no. Traditional sagas were also artwork in their origin, later mutating through multiple anonymous hands. In Tolkien's case, the process is backwards (traditional material stylized by an artist) not much unlike the Shahnameh or Kalavela.

Tolkien should not be considered saga because it is not a saga, Tolkien was a fantasywriter who built his work on old myths and sagas.

A saga may well have historical truth in it (Jomsvikings, Egil Skallagrimsson) Tolkien is fantasy and should be discussed somewhere else. (dont get me wrong, I love Tolkiens work)

Kalle

**Franconicus** · 10-24-2005, 11:43

20 replys but no answers to my questions

Here is one of my favorites. It is the saga of Walther and Hildegung. Maybe you know it. I right it out of my memory, but I guess that is the way sagas should be told

Saga of Walther and Hildegund

The king of the Hun, Etzel (=Attila) started a new invasion in Europe. He attacked the Franks, Burgunds and Aquitanians. None dared to fight him. So they offered him gold and hostages: Walther the son of the Aquitanian king, Hildegund the daughter of the Burgund king. Gunter, the son of the Frank king was too young to be hostage; so the Frank king gave the son of one of his noblemen, Hagen von Tronje.

Etzel was pleased from the result of his campaign. He ordered to educate the three hostages as if they were his own children.

When they were grown, Walther and Hagen were strong fighters in the army of Etzel. Walther, especially, excelled at bravery and gained a leading position in the army of the Huns. Hildegund herself became caretaker of Etzel’s treasure.

Although all three were respected persons at the king’s court they all were homesick. Hagen took the first opportunity and run away. Etzel was very angry about this and his wife told him: Beware that Walther will run away too. He is too important for our army. Give him a wife. That will pin him down. So the king called Walther and told him that he wanted to award him for his deeds. He told him that he could take any girl he wants to become his wife. Walther replied that this is a very generous offer. However having a wife he would not be able to serve his king on the battle field the way he wants it to. So Etzel forbeared from his offer and told his wife: Walther is ours forever.

However, Walther had already plans to run away and he agreed with Hildegund to take her with him. After a big victory party when all the Hun warriors were drunk they run away with a horse loaded with gold. When Etzel realized this he called his warriors and promised a reward for those who bring back Walther. But the warriors knew Walther and the way he fought and none tried to win the price.

On their way home Walther and Hildegund finally reached the Rhine. They were happy because they thought they were finally safe. They crossed the river and Walther paid the ferryman with two fishes he had angled before in the Danube. The ferrymen saw that the fishes were not from local waters and sold them to the cook of King Gunter.

Gunter was curious and asked where the fishes came from. The ferryman told that he received them from a foreign warrior who was accompanied by a lady and a horse cargo of gold. Gunter asked his men if they knew who this stranger could be. Hagen replied: Good news, my king, this must be Walther my good friend from the time at Etzels court. Gunter said: So this is gold from Etzel’s treasure. Excellent! So finally a part of the gold my father had to pay is coming back. Hagen replied: Gunter, it is much easier to want the gold than to take it away from Walther. Gunter became furious and told Hagen: If you are scared we will do it without you! He left with a dozen of his men. Hagen followed them reluctantly.

They met Walther at the Wasgenstein, where they halted. This is a narrow path in the middle of a forrest. At both sides there are rocks so only two men can walk side by side. Gunter demanded on Walther for the gold and Hildegund. Walter offered him some gold but Gunter did not accept. So the fighting began. As only two men of Gunter could attack at one time Walter was able to kill all men. Hagen was shocked to see his comrades die. One of the dead was nephew. When the king saw that all of his men were dead he asked Hagen to attack Walther. Hagen realized that he had to keep the loyalty to the king. He promised to fight if could do it his way and the king would join the fight too. Gunter agreed.

Hagen and Gunter retreated and Walther and Hildegund pushed along. But as soon as they had left the forest they were attacked by the two men again. After a tough fight Walther managed to hurt Gunter’s leg. The next strike would have killed Gunter but Hagen jumped in between and Walther’s sword hit his helmet. The blade broke Hagen used the chance that Walther had lost his sword and chopped off Walther’s right hand. Walter managed to pull his short sword with his left and pulled it across Hagen’s face. Hagen lost one eye and six teeth.

After this the battle was over. Hildegund dressed the wounds, the men became friends.

**Incongruous** · 10-24-2005, 22:59

Uhhh...
My understanding was that Beowulf was English and his story was written in old English. I am correct aren't I?

**Steppe Merc** · 10-25-2005, 01:37

Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Uhhh...
My understanding was that Beowulf was English and his story was written in old English. I am correct aren't I?

Well, this is from what I understand. It was an Anglo Saxon story about when they were still in the Netherlands (Denmark, and wherever the Geots are from). It was orginally pagan, but then monks wrote it down and Christianized it.
But it all takes place in mainly I think Denmark, and the surrounding area.

Mouza, thanks for clearning that up. I knew of Rustam from my reading of books about Iran miliatry traditions, and one book mentioned some art work that looked like his supposedly did.

**Papewaio** · 10-26-2005, 08:06

Originally Posted by Kalle

Tolkien should not be considered saga because it is not a saga, Tolkien was a fantasywriter who built his work on old myths and sagas.

A saga may well have historical truth in it (Jomsvikings, Egil Skallagrimsson) Tolkien is fantasy and should be discussed somewhere else. (dont get me wrong, I love Tolkiens work)

Kalle

Sagas are fantasy. With monsters, magic swords, maidens in distress, compressed timescales for dramatic events etc.

Just like Tolkiens work they have a historical basis on which the fiction is staged.

**Mouzafphaerre** · 10-26-2005, 10:24

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No offense taken or intended Kalle but I think exactly like Pape in this saga/fantasy matter.

The difference between -say- Niebelungenlied or Jomsviking and Tolkien or Firdowsi is that simply we know who the author is in the latters.

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**Franconicus** · 10-26-2005, 10:45

I diasagree! I do not say that those sagas are correct history. But they do have a true core. I think that they give a lot of additional information.
Two examples of a different time and area:
You have the tales of Homer and in fact you could find Troja according to the stories. You also have the Bible which is also historical tradition.

**Kraxis** · 10-26-2005, 12:46

Indeed a saga is a sort of folklore, it doesn't have to be historic, but will most often contain parts of that.

Tolkien presents no folklore, merely a good story.