heroic sagas

**Franconicus** · 10-26-2005, 10:45

I diasagree! I do not say that those sagas are correct history. But they do have a true core. I think that they give a lot of additional information.
Two examples of a different time and area:
You have the tales of Homer and in fact you could find Troja according to the stories. You also have the Bible which is also historical tradition.

**Kraxis** · 10-26-2005, 12:46

Indeed a saga is a sort of folklore, it doesn't have to be historic, but will most often contain parts of that.

Tolkien presents no folklore, merely a good story.

**Franconicus** · 10-26-2005, 13:03

Yes! Do you know the saga of Wieland? Made the first full metal plane! The father of German engineering! Much better than Daedalus and icarus.

**Kalle** · 10-26-2005, 18:01

No offense is taken by me, but I still hold my statement for true which it also is. The islandic sagas are actual historical sources in many cases. Tolkien is fantasy and fantasy and saga are not same thing. Neither is myth and saga same thing.

Kalle

**Kraxis** · 10-26-2005, 18:07

One more aspect that is often part of a saga, but isn't in Tolkiens works. The 'common identity' aspect. Sagas are meant to give people a feeling of unity, that THIS is their history, not somebody else. Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

Tolkien made no such aspirations... He just made a great story of people in times of distress.

**Meneldil** · 10-26-2005, 20:41

What do you mean exactly by Heroic Saga ? If don't know if they could be considered as such, but the Arthurian myth and the Tale of Roland kinda sound and taste as heroic sagas.

**Franconicus** · 11-03-2005, 09:11

Did you know that the roots of the Nibelungen saga go back to 5th century? That means they are very close to the BI. I think it is a very interesting source about the time.

There are two things I do not understand:
1. There are no Romans in this saga.
2. The describtion of the Huns and their leader Attila is very positive, compared to the other historical sources.

**Papewaio** · 11-14-2005, 03:26

Originally Posted by Kraxis

One more aspect that is often part of a saga, but isn't in Tolkiens works. The 'common identity' aspect. Sagas are meant to give people a feeling of unity, that THIS is their history, not somebody else. Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

Tolkien made no such aspirations... He just made a great story of people in times of distress.

No, I think you need to read more about what Tolkein was trying to achieve. He was trying to fill the verbal history gaps in the Englisn (Saxon) History left by the Norman invasion. His aim was to create a tale that mended this history.

Reading the Welsh tales of Arthur and their equivalent of elves and one can see some of the inspiratons for Tolkeins work.

Nor to I agree with the idea that Sagas are factual. If they are factual then RTW, Braveheart and Star Wars are history lessons.

Yes they are oral history, but they are not facts. They use facts to make the story more believable. But I do believe the tellers of these stories just like our RTW developers scarificed reality for drama and just like our RTW marketers they scarificed compexitiy for ease of understanding.

**Franconicus** · 11-14-2005, 09:27

Pape,
You are wrong. I met Siegfried in the Dragon Bar last night and he confirmed that everything is really true!

**Kraxis** · 11-14-2005, 13:53

Originally Posted by Papewaio

No, I think you need to read more about what Tolkein was trying to achieve. He was trying to fill the verbal history gaps in the Englisn (Saxon) History left by the Norman invasion. His aim was to create a tale that mended this history.

Reading the Welsh tales of Arthur and their equivalent of elves and one can see some of the inspiratons for Tolkeins work.

Nor to I agree with the idea that Sagas are factual. If they are factual then RTW, Braveheart and Star Wars are history lessons.

Yes they are oral history, but they are not facts. They use facts to make the story more believable. But I do believe the tellers of these stories just like our RTW developers scarificed reality for drama and just like our RTW marketers they scarificed compexitiy for ease of understanding.

The fact is that Tolkien creates a universe, he doesn't put the setting in Saxon England. He does base his various groups and info on what he could find in English history, but he shakes it together in a totally different mix. It has nothing to do with the real sagas/myths/legendary stories. In that case I could go on to claim that Star Wars is a saga too, but it is not. It is a story.

Sagas are not factual, always (some are to an extent), but they are meant to be percieved as factual, that was what I tried to convey when I wrote:

Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

I stress 'believed'. It is of little influence if they are in fact true or not.