heroic sagas

**Kraxis** · 10-26-2005, 18:07

One more aspect that is often part of a saga, but isn't in Tolkiens works. The 'common identity' aspect. Sagas are meant to give people a feeling of unity, that THIS is their history, not somebody else. Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

Tolkien made no such aspirations... He just made a great story of people in times of distress.

**Meneldil** · 10-26-2005, 20:41

What do you mean exactly by Heroic Saga ? If don't know if they could be considered as such, but the Arthurian myth and the Tale of Roland kinda sound and taste as heroic sagas.

**Franconicus** · 11-03-2005, 09:11

Did you know that the roots of the Nibelungen saga go back to 5th century? That means they are very close to the BI. I think it is a very interesting source about the time.

There are two things I do not understand:
1. There are no Romans in this saga.
2. The describtion of the Huns and their leader Attila is very positive, compared to the other historical sources.

**Incongruous** · 11-14-2005, 00:07

Tolkien provides everything a SAG deos, it solidifies a people under one vision, it has many poems and tales interwoven.
The entire story of Gondor vs Morgoth is based on an ancient Gothic tale about the evil Black Goth aka Morgoth versus some eastern Germanic tribe.
Then theres the whole Anglo-Saxon Mythology eg the tree of Gondor represents the hewn tree of Wessex which was only "re-joined" once the true blood of Wessex was again sitting on the throne (Henry the 1sts wife and therefore his son). Thats identical to the tale of Aragorn.

**Mouzafphaerre** · 11-14-2005, 00:19

.
It's been like five weeks since I ordered the books but they haven't arrived yet.

Waiting for the six week period the dealers give complete.
.

**Steppe Merc** · 11-14-2005, 02:27

Originally Posted by Franconicus

2. The describtion of the Huns and their leader Attila is very positive, compared to the other historical sources.

Of course, many Germanics were allied with Atilla. His army and campaigns were more Germanic in style than nomadic.

**tsyed** · 11-14-2005, 03:07

As kids, we also heard stories of Rustam and Sohrab from our mother/grandmothers. Rustam ends up killing his son Sohrab, only later to find out that he was his son.

Most of the characters in the Shahnamah are supposed to be from the Parthian period - mabye that is why all the heroes are knights clad in armor.

**Papewaio** · 11-14-2005, 03:26

Originally Posted by Kraxis

One more aspect that is often part of a saga, but isn't in Tolkiens works. The 'common identity' aspect. Sagas are meant to give people a feeling of unity, that THIS is their history, not somebody else. Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

Tolkien made no such aspirations... He just made a great story of people in times of distress.

No, I think you need to read more about what Tolkein was trying to achieve. He was trying to fill the verbal history gaps in the Englisn (Saxon) History left by the Norman invasion. His aim was to create a tale that mended this history.

Reading the Welsh tales of Arthur and their equivalent of elves and one can see some of the inspiratons for Tolkeins work.

Nor to I agree with the idea that Sagas are factual. If they are factual then RTW, Braveheart and Star Wars are history lessons.

Yes they are oral history, but they are not facts. They use facts to make the story more believable. But I do believe the tellers of these stories just like our RTW developers scarificed reality for drama and just like our RTW marketers they scarificed compexitiy for ease of understanding.

**Franconicus** · 11-14-2005, 09:27

Pape,
You are wrong. I met Siegfried in the Dragon Bar last night and he confirmed that everything is really true!

**Kraxis** · 11-14-2005, 13:53

Originally Posted by Papewaio

No, I think you need to read more about what Tolkein was trying to achieve. He was trying to fill the verbal history gaps in the Englisn (Saxon) History left by the Norman invasion. His aim was to create a tale that mended this history.

Reading the Welsh tales of Arthur and their equivalent of elves and one can see some of the inspiratons for Tolkeins work.

Nor to I agree with the idea that Sagas are factual. If they are factual then RTW, Braveheart and Star Wars are history lessons.

Yes they are oral history, but they are not facts. They use facts to make the story more believable. But I do believe the tellers of these stories just like our RTW developers scarificed reality for drama and just like our RTW marketers they scarificed compexitiy for ease of understanding.

The fact is that Tolkien creates a universe, he doesn't put the setting in Saxon England. He does base his various groups and info on what he could find in English history, but he shakes it together in a totally different mix. It has nothing to do with the real sagas/myths/legendary stories. In that case I could go on to claim that Star Wars is a saga too, but it is not. It is a story.

Sagas are not factual, always (some are to an extent), but they are meant to be percieved as factual, that was what I tried to convey when I wrote:

Sagas are meant to be believed as facts or at least as close to facts.

I stress 'believed'. It is of little influence if they are in fact true or not.

**Papewaio** · 11-15-2005, 04:26

Hmmm does this Make Star Trek a Saga because of the Trekkies?

**lugh** · 11-15-2005, 12:18

I've never really read the nordic/saxon Sagas. I love the books by countess Markeivcz on the Irish Celts and Tuatha de Danann. They're basically the oral tradition written down and translated. Very much mythical though.
For something a little more factual, you should try the various medieval chronicles. They're far from the truth in many cases but enjoyable, in a simialar vein to the sagas.