Can Anyone Save Descartes From the Cartesian Circle?

[Kanamori]

I can't say I've ever heard a good argument to save him from it, but have you?

Humor is always appreciated too

[Byzantine Prince]

Would you mind writing the argument out in full. I have no idea about Descarte's Cartesian circle.

[Kanamori]

Basically, many people, myself included until I hear a good counter, think that Descartes' proof of God is presupposed by the statement "whatever I perceive clearly and distinctly is true." He uses the proof of God to show that "whatever I perceive clearly and distinctly is true." Basically, it is a big example of begging the question, or circle logic. It is in Meditations of First Philosophy, starting at the third meditation, although there is backround in the first two meditations, but I cannot recall if any of that backround is absolutely necessary to understanding the content of the third and on. Oh and if you are interested: Meditations of First Philosophy. Haven't read from the source, but it looks complete from what I can tell (minuse some helpful footnotes of how the french version was translated from latin).

Edit: Would any Mod be kind enough to fix the poll so that it reads "God can," rather than "God"?

[Byzantine Prince]

I believe Descartes was in a lot of pressure from the church to not speak of atheist concepts.

That aside, I'm pretty sure Pindar will come up with a way to prove That god exists using that logic. Damn sophist!

The error comes from 'clearly and distinctly'. There is nothing in this world that we can percieve clearly and distinctly(except for one), not even our own existence(or else why would we doubt it?). Everytime we discover something clearly, more layers apear, and no end will come. Socrates was right when he said that 'he knows one thing, that he knows nothing'.

Then again being convinced of one's own belief is quite different.

[Soulforged]

The error comes from 'clearly and distinctly'. There is nothing in this world that we can percieve clearly and distinctly(except for one), not even our own existence(or else why would we doubt it?). Everytime we discover something clearly, more layers apear, and no end will come. Socrates was right when he said that 'he knows one thing, that he knows nothing'.

Yes there's. The phenomenums are percibable in their true way. Observation develops that image. The essence of things is not percivable, not with certainty and clearness.

"whatever I perceive clearly and distinctly is true."

If when you say that he uses the proof of God to state this is what I think it is (ie. using God as a factor of change in reality), then the logic conclusion is false, because God doesn't exists. But perhaps there's more to that logic that I don't know. Didn't read the work, and I don't have time right now. Perhaps the previous meditations are needed. However the phylosophy has improved from those days, it will not surprise me if this is totally wrong.
In any case, when you ask if Descartes could be saved from this Cartesian Circle, you mean saving his points by adding arguments to it?

[ScionTheWorm]

I'll say no, but only guessing

[Kanamori]

Yeah, I was hoping for some humor maybe too, maybe asking for it ruins it But my inclusion of 'God can' in the poll was an example of such attempts at humor. Aren't you laughing now?










Something tells me, 'no' is the aswer to that question.

[Pindar]

That aside, I'm pretty sure Pindar will come up with a way to prove That god exists using that logic. Damn sophist!

We each have our place. My is to confuse. Yours is to be confused.

[Byzantine Prince]

We each have our place. My is to confuse. Yours is to be confused.

Really? Your place is to make statements that lack clarity?

Do you understand why I call you a sophist?

[Pindar]

I can't say I've ever heard a good argument to save him from it, but have you?

Maybe, but I'm not going to tell you. That's would be too easy.

The process is as important as the final destination.

[Tribesman]

"whatever I perceive clearly and distinctly is true."
His perception might be clouded but he doesn't know it , what his clouded perception shows as distinct is really blurred .
So perhaps he isn't really going in a circle , he is going back and forth on the base of a triangle and has no perception of the apex of the triangle which he needs to get to , so as to really complete the cycle of his journey of understanding .

[Kanamori]

Maybe, but I'm not going to tell you. That's would be too easy.

The process is as important as the final destination.

oh, nm.

Oh bugger that, i'm going back to bed until 12.