Can Anyone Save Descartes From the Cartesian Circle?

[Reverend Joe]

As far as the falling tree example is concerned, you don't have to be there to hear it. You can record the sound and even do a frequency analysis. This means that the falling of the tree does indeed produce a measurable effect.

Ah, but are you hearing the noise, or a recording of the noise? And is not the frequency analyzer detecting the vibrations, and not actually hearing the noise? "Measurable effect" also falls in the realm of science. It does not work with the idea that noise is only that which is heard by someone or something that can speak about it- i.e. an intellegent being. This is outside of the scientific pathway, and onto another. It crosses onto the "Cogito Ergo Sum" idea created by Descartes.

[Quietus]

Another conundrum: if a tree falls in a forest and nothing is around to hear it, does it make a noise? Of course, any scientist would answer yes- but it all really depends on your definition of noise. If a noise is the vibrations in the air, then yes, of course it does. But what if these vibrations must be heard in order to be considered noise? What if, without being heard, it is simply considered to be vibrations in the ground and air? Can it not be argued, therefore, that a tree that crashes down in a forest with nothing around to hear it, does not really make a noise?

There's no conundrum though. Sound (inside your head) and soundwaves are two different phenomenon. Soundwaves are converted in your ear and the signal is sent to the brain and interpreted as a sound (eg. boom, clang, pow, etc.)

Think of your Ear and Brain as a Store and the Soundwaves as Money.

Your fifty dollars is converted to a RTW CD inside the store. If there are no store, then your fifty dollars remain fifty dollars.

Hence if there's no person in the forest, the soundwaves remain soundwaves, but there's no sound.

Sound only happens inside your head.

[Reverend Joe]

That is the first time I have heard that distinction.

[A.Saturnus]

Sound only happens inside your head.

But where inside your head? The ear nerve, the thalamus, the auditive cortex or the temporal lobe?