Preview October 22nd 2005

[Rodion Romanovich]

Time for another preview!

We begin by some news, that should be well-known to some already, but I repeat it here again because many interested in this mod read the previews only:
1. due to the possibilities of the BI engine, we're now developing the mod for BI. This means shieldwalls, religion, new culture and many other features. Among other things the franks and the papacy don't need to share field of vision and be allied, so now we're getting a much more accurate mod.
2. one of these possibilities is also the removal of the senate system, which in our case means removal of the papacy. The pope is instead implemented in another way, but as he was fairly powerless at this time, this new method is more accurate. The papacy faction has therefore been replaced by another faction: Great Moravia, which was an important faction in the Central European situation until destroyed by the magyars in the late 10th century. This will make the mod more balanced both from gameplay and historical perspective, as the Eastern Frankish Empire is now threatened on their eastern borders. Still, the EFE when AI controlled will tend to have great possibilities for expansion later in the game, which is historically correct.

And now on to some wonderful units:

Kabarok: the kabars were one of the groups that followed the magyar migration into the Pannonia area, and provided the magyar armies with very good horse archers. The magyar army was perhaps the most typical steppe army of it's time. While khazars and bulgars were using more infantry in this period, the magyars still used very little else than horse archers and heavy cavalry. In AoVaF, the kabarok will be light horse archers with very limited fighting capabilities in prolonged meleé, but a well-timed charge from these horse archers into the rear of a pinned enemy is far from harmless.


Milites pedites (axe): while the comes are the professional elite of the Frankish army, the milites are the backbone of the Frankish army. While they mostly fight on horseback, they're sometimes also dismounted and used as heavy infantry. Perhaps not as effective infantry as they are as cavalry, the dismounted milites are the best infantry the Franks can muster. The milites pedites (meaning simply "militia footmen"), were armed with either axes or swords. The unit on the picture above is the milites pedites (axe) of the Eastern Frankish Empire.


Viking berserkers: the viking berserkers are perhaps the most effective shock troops of the viking arsenal. The belief that honorable death in combat will grant you a place in Valhalla, the paradise of the vikings, gives these men a fearless attitude in combat, and sometimes they also enter an uncontrolled state of fierceness, berserkagangr, where they fiercely attack all enemies around them. Being quite few in numbers and lightly armored, they're not good as line troops, but better sent around enemy flanks, where they can have a devastating effect to a pinned enemy. Their main weaknesses are perhaps their vulnerability to missiles and cavalry.


Trell spearmen: The trells or thralls are slaves in the viking society. Usually not allowed to carry any weapons, these men are in cases of emergency called in without proper training and with improvised weaponry in order to fight for their oppressive masters. Needless to say, both their morale and fighting capabilities are neglectable, but just like the militia of other factions they form a good complement to regular troops when numbers are needed.

That's all for now!

Thanks to imageshack for free image hosting!

Keep in mind that everything posted is or might be work in progress.

[Lord Adherbal]

nice units, especially those berserkers

[Radier]

Good work!

[Geoffrey S]

I'm liking it.

[al'Callaendor]

very nice

[Viking]

I particulary liked the details on the clothings on that horse. Great work.

[Archbaker]

Those berserkers are among the greatest things I have ever seen in a video game.
The kabarok is also a thing of beauty and the pedites looks very good for a standard unit which shouldn't be too detailed.

Are iron shields real? I have never seen a reference to them, and I have trouble making ense of them.

[Stormy]

Another wonderful preview.
I'm anticipating the next one.

[Forgus]

Nice work. My only remark is that the horse-wear looks a little to Arabic\persian looking for me. Great work nonetheless.

[GoreBag]

Keep 'em coming.

[edyzmedieval]

Keep the updates comin'....

The Kabarok looks great. Can't wait to implement them into BTW.

[Forgus]

Either kabarok look great, or the Kabars look great. It is plural.

[Speiz_Bankurt]

Kabarok is plural in Hungarian, Kabar is singular. They are looking good though!

[Birka Viking]

Very nice preview...wonderful skins..keep up the good work..

[Helgi]

Looking great, love the berserkagangr skin, hope you don't change it

[Steppe Merc]

Where is the saddle for the Magyar unit? They should deffiently have a saddle, it helped a lot in providing a stable seat for horse archers (same with stirrups).

[tutankamon]

What can i say other than: WOW they look great but why do the berserkers not have a shield?

[Csatadi]

Scion, Skeletor,
Do you see the lancers on Tutankamon's signature? My sources say the guys until the 11th era fought this way. Later they held the lance in their armpit.
Good pictures anyway. I like especially the feet of the axeman. The berserker is a true art picture. Good.
The kabar guy seems to me dark especially his headgear and head. What is that triangle under his belt? Does he wear a skirt?
The picture is relatively small, details are hidden. Are you afraid of some criticism?

[Meneldil]

Eastern people used the couched lance way before the 11th. It was brought to Western Europe by the Normans, who learnt it when they were fighting for (and sometimes against) the Byzantines as mercenaries.

Before that, they either used it overhand or in RTW fashion, but it wasn't really effective when charging.

[al'Callaendor]

not new screens?

[Sephriel]

hi,
great work, guys!
one detail.... : milites pedites means "soldier infantry", it's a pleonasm, as peditis,-is means infantryman and militis,-is does not mean militia, but simply soldier. at least thats what we have learned in school ;)
cheers

[Viking]

Time for another preview!

[Meneldil]

I'll try to post some kind of mini-preview soon

[Viking]

Good

[skeletor]

What can i say other than: WOW they look great but why do the berserkers not have a shield?

There are two theorys of the name Berserker. One is the one RTW uses, that they wore a bearskin. (serk = clothing) so bear-clothing.

The other theory is bar-serk (bar in norse languages is the same as none or naked) So it means that they fought with no "serk" or only serk and no armour. Mutch like the naked fanatics in RTW.

My berserkers is a compromise with both theorys, so they both wear bearskin, and no other clothing like the rest of the vikings.So. if they didn't belive in going to combat with any armour, why then bring a shield?

Scion, Skeletor,
Do you see the lancers on Tutankamon's signature? My sources say the guys until the 11th era fought this way. Later they held the lance in their armpit.
Good pictures anyway. I like especially the feet of the axeman. The berserker is a true art picture. Good.
The kabar guy seems to me dark especially his headgear and head. What is that triangle under his belt? Does he wear a skirt?
The picture is relatively small, details are hidden. Are you afraid of some criticism?

True with the lances. Eaven tho the commun thought have been that the frankish cavalery used their lances as heavy thrustweapons (due to the use of sterups fron merovingian times), the Bayoux carpet and other sources indivcates more use of overhand thrusts, throwing spears, and lighter armour.

Yhe problem here is how mutch time we will invest in making a new animation to get this way of fighting just right.

I will first try to get all the unit's done and playable, then maybe look in to this later.

-SKel-

[Csatadi]

SKel:
I will first try to get all the unit's done and playable, then maybe look in to this later.

You have right.
I think the mod should be playable at least as a beta. Even if you use bad skins because we can test the AI behavior and the problems early. This way the skinning and the writing-calculating processes can go in parallel.
Than you can add the correct and refined skins to the game with patches. IMO

if they didn't belive in going to combat with any armour, why then bring a shield?

I think their naked fight has cultic origin.
I like the idea of evolution. In the eary times there were berserkers with a single weapon and others also weared shields. Their first battle showed the evolutionary advantage of using shields. The single weapon-type berserkers had no chance making children and transmite their blindfold behaviour.

Althrough I understand your situation I was also in big trouble to find out what the old Magyar warriors should wear.

[Ranika]

A shield isn't just for defense like armor, it can also be used as a weapon. You can effectively bash some one down for a killing blow with a shield, and some cultures who used lighter shields or shields strapped to the fore arm would give them a spike on the boss to stab with. Also, berserkers aren't necessarily trying to just show their bravery, they can also be opting for mobility. In that sense, a light round shield doesn't really staunch mobility, and provides some protection in addition to being useful as a bashing side weapon.

[Archbaker]

hi,
great work, guys!
one detail.... : milites pedites means "soldier infantry", it's a pleonasm, as peditis,-is means infantryman and militis,-is does not mean militia, but simply soldier. at least thats what we have learned in school ;)
cheers

But a soldier and a militiaman [edit: I meant infantryman]is not always the same; cavalry are soldiers too. A milites is someone who marches in a contingent, but a pedites is someone who travels by foot.

I don't know Latin grammar well enough to say if the use of one noun as an apellative to another is correct, but Caesar seems to think so:
"Postridie eius diei mane tripertito milites equitesque in expeditionem misit, ut eos qui fugerant persequerentur."
http://www.debellogallico.org/index.cgi/bgtext/vol5_10

You are right, of course, in saying that the words equites and pedites on their own would be enough, but then equites would suggest members of the Ordo Equestri, merchants or knights rather than cavalrymen.

A shield isn't just for defense like armor, it can also be used as a weapon. You can effectively bash some one down for a killing blow with a shield, and some cultures who used lighter shields or shields strapped to the fore arm would give them a spike on the boss to stab with. Also, berserkers aren't necessarily trying to just show their bravery, they can also be opting for mobility. In that sense, a light round shield doesn't really staunch mobility, and provides some protection in addition to being useful as a bashing side weapon.

What Ranika said. To the extend of my knowledge, the medieval arming sword was simply not made to be used without a shield. Of course that doesn't mean that some didn't do so, but it looks a little weird to me. I do realise we are discussing a unit that is on the edge of the realm of strict realism already, though.
I don't think they would carry a "light round shield", actually. The viking shield was generally fairly large and held in the hand rather than strapped to the arm. I imagine it was used very offensively, but Tutankamon probably knows more about that.

[tutankamon]

My berserkers is a compromise with both theorys, so they both wear bearskin, and no other clothing like the rest of the vikings.So. if they didn't belive in going to combat with any armour, why then bring a shield?
-SKel-

First of all we don't have any arkeological evidence of the existence of the berserkers so.. but what would a viking mod be without these brave and furios fighters of the sagas..
As for the viking shields. It wasn't a shield as most other shield were, it was a light shield used as a mild protection against arrowshowers and to ward of axe and sword hits. Not as a defence you can hide behind... belive me you don't wanna do that so i think it would be reasonable to give them a litle shield. But if you wanna go forth with your current idea, then you need to make sure that they are expert, and furious warriors with absolutly no fear of death, since all they whant is to dine with Odin in the great hall. But It would be a shame if they ended up as food for the ravens too easily like the thralls, so if you don't wanna give them a shield then perhaps an extra weapon but i guess you have though of that allready

[tutankamon]

Great thralls by the way!! and as you say they weren't, normally, used in combat infact there is no evidence that they were used at all... but I guess that they could have been used as food for the ravens when outnumbered by an invading army... but certainly not on the raids since the raids were mostly for free men and sometimes their families...if there is anything i can do help, then please let me know