RTW: Eastern Infantry

**Garvanko** · 10-24-2005, 13:52

Surely the worst unit ever. Worse than peasants.

**aw89** · 10-24-2005, 14:06

Thank you for sharing!

**NihilisticCow** · 10-24-2005, 14:29

Except they're not, in my Parthian campaign a while back, I used Eastern infantry quite a lot at the start to bog down enemy chariots, something they do excel at. I also have been known to use them online in a similar "speed bump" role.

**Garvanko** · 10-24-2005, 14:38

Originally Posted by aw89

Thank you for sharing!

I couldn't hold back any longer.

Honestly, these guys, even with 3xp, are hopeless.

And you say Parthia, Nihilist.. but..

I know, i know, I was playing Egypt, and I was defending a bridge, but seriously...

**Dutch_guy** · 10-24-2005, 15:27

yeah they are probably the worst unit out there ( excluding peasants )
though Hilmen come close..

**Horatius** · 10-24-2005, 15:50

In Barbarian Invasion every infantry unit can be useful in a siege because they can simply bring siege towers close enough to walls to fire on the garrisson, so that is a pretty good use for the 60 man division, especially since the computer AI does not send cavalry out of the city, and since they don't rout as quickly as peasants do.

I didn't unlock the Berbers yet so never tried that strategy.

**Darius** · 10-24-2005, 15:56

Yea the Eastern Infantry are really only good for garrison duty and small scale skirmishes along your "low-tech" borders. I essentially use them solely as you would any light infantry, just to run around the flanks and attack from the rear, because head to head most anything puts a scare into them. However when compared to the Town Militia I actually find these guys a bit more useful if only because they make a decent garrison force that has the same amount of troops as a ragged band of peasants but with at least enough training to actually stand their ground for a little while if anything. You just have to make sure you dont go using them like they're anything other than what they are, a bunch of guys in little more than pajamas holding a piece of wood and a pointy stick.

**Jambo** · 10-24-2005, 16:19

In 1.3 haven't Eastern Infantry and Hillmen now got some kind of spear bonus like Barbarian Warbands... if so, maybe they're now of some use against cavalry?

But yes as infantry against infantry go all they're good for is mass slaughter. :D

**Dutch_guy** · 10-24-2005, 16:50

yes , they have the spear attribute, that doesn't however up their morale

So even if they face low tier cavalry, they will most certainly rout, even though they might have killed more than if they were fighting infantry head on.

**Tricky Lady** · 10-24-2005, 17:26

Hmm, guess I'm a terrible player then, but I have already lost a general (and came close to losing a second one), thinking that these Eastern Infs are the worst infantry in the game.
I know they are.

But sometimes they seem to get some increadible morale boosters (enemy general's qualities perhaps), as I charged into their backs, they just turned around and my general's bodyguards started dropping like flies. Before I realised what was happening I got the "General died" cut screen. What a shock! A five-star general stabbed down by a stupid Eastern infantryman, after merely three seconds of "melee".
Same thing happened a few turns later, in a city siege. But there it was probably the "no-return-in-city-center" morale boost that made the EI do things they usually don't do. I pulled back my general just in time. Even when charging into their backs, they just turned around again, and the general's bodyguards went down from 25 to 10 in 3 or 4 seconds.

I have been extra careful fighting eastern infantry ever since.

Or I should get some tactics lessons and not rely so hard on my cavalry/generals

**The Stranger** · 10-24-2005, 18:25

they are not useless i used them alot when playing as Rebels, they held down every friggin unit at all bridges

**HoreTore** · 10-24-2005, 19:19

The unit itself is not useless.

HOWEVER, the parthian/armenian/pontus armies made up (almost) COMPLETELY of them are useless.

I want to face parthian cavalry, not parthian light infantry hordes dammit!

**Kraxis** · 10-24-2005, 20:46

Originally Posted by Garvanko

I couldn't hold back any longer.

Honestly, these guys, even with 3xp, are hopeless.

And you say Parthia, Nihilist.. but..

I know, i know, I was playing Egypt, and I was defending a bridge, but seriously...

Come on... You had phalanx troops. Those poor Eastern Infantry never had a chance. Neither would most low tier infantry.

I like Eastern Infantry (and their slightly weaker Merc counterparts... yeah I know "how can they be weaker than Eastern Infantry?"), not because they are great, but because they serve a purpose.
They are perfect as meatfillers, pincushions (especially now that their shields will protect them better) and speedbumps. And if they recieve some moraleboosters they can acutally dish out serious damage to cavalry.

In 1.2 I was foolish enough to try and gain a quick victory in a city, wheer I had taken the gate and the wait was open to the plaza, which was only guarded by a unit of Eastern Infantry. Wouldn't a unit of Cataphracts do nicely? Well... no. They won, and quite desively, but their own losses were not anything I would care to repeat.
So never underestimate these guys.

I prefer to use them on my flanks, there they can extend the often too short player line. With protected flanks and a general nearby they will hold their position for more than long enough for the central units to overcome their enemies. And since the flanks are often the place of cavalry that is what they will mostly face, and light cavalry is far more likely than heavy, and light cavalry should beware of these. As Stalin once said: "Numbers have a quality of their own." Very fitting here. And their bonus in deserts is very nice.

I agree, though, that entire armies of Eastern Infantry with a sprinkle of Hillmen and slingers or archers is certainly not a challenge.

**Red Harvest** · 10-25-2005, 00:50

Originally Posted by Garvanko

Surely the worst unit ever. Worse than peasants.

They don't have a lot going for them, except that cav bonus.

What is funny is comparing them to the worst sword infantry unit I can think of: Iberian infantry (you know, the culture renowned for the quality of its swords.) The problem with the Iberians is that they are getting almost no armour credit, 2 lousy points: so their total defense is a whopping ... 8 ... sigh. The buckler is worth only 2 points vs. 5 points for the Eastern wicker shield.

Hmmm...thinking about it now, the eastern infantry have 50% more men, and 2 points more defense. So while their effective attack is only about 2.2, they might actually have a chance in melee vs. those poor Iberians.

**Papewaio** · 10-25-2005, 01:44

Actually 2 units of Eastern + 2 units of Hillmen knocked a chariot unit to third of its strength in my last battle. They worked as a speed bumb keeping the chariot off my Horse Archers long enough for them to chew up the approaching spearmen.

Eastern Infantry are old style paper-rock-scissors. They are like the STW Ashi-spearmen. Good against cav, bad against anything else.

They have a role and they do it well.

**Taiwan Legion** · 10-25-2005, 02:26

Originally Posted by Garvanko

I couldn't hold back any longer.

Honestly, these guys, even with 3xp, are hopeless.

And you say Parthia, Nihilist.. but..

I know, i know, I was playing Egypt, and I was defending a bridge, but seriously...

how come your map are on the top right?

**Red Harvest** · 10-25-2005, 04:27

You all realize that hillmen are even weaker than eastern infantry 1vs1?

I had always assumed so, but I just ran through the tests. Sure enough the hillmen simply run out of men. I never have understood the purpose of this "upgrade" to hillmen: A unit with slightly less defense (smaller shield), and 33% smaller. The only benefits are better base morale, and 2 points of attack. Not much to get excited about. Gee, thanks...

The only use I can see for hillmen is when the desert infantry lack the morale to even fight at all, and even then it is rather iffy.

p.s. Iberians do beat the eastern infantry--about the only melee unit they can beat other than town watch/militia and peasants. Iberians get owned by desert spearmen (the Numidian guys.)

**Papewaio** · 10-25-2005, 04:30

I find that mixing the two in equal amounts makes a better force then a monoforce of either for some reason.

**Red Harvest** · 10-25-2005, 05:16

Originally Posted by Papewaio

I find that mixing the two in equal amounts makes a better force then a monoforce of either for some reason.

Might work to let the hillmen take the brunt of a charge (since they won't auto rout as easily) then throw the eastern infantry into the fray to start the slow attrition. Hillmen would be less likely to rout on a flank at first contact...or just walking.

It's crazy that the hillmen lose in head-to-head though. One of those, "do they ever play the game?" moments.

It also looks like the desert bonuses are so small as to be meaningless. +1 on sand? +2 on scrub? Most melee units get +2 on scrub, so what is the point? In RTW +1 is inconsequential. In MTW it had a small but notable impact. You would think on their own turf these guys would get +3 or something. Throw 'em a bone on defense at home.

**Papewaio** · 10-25-2005, 05:21

Numbers and morale beat quality. Hillmen have one but lose the other with respect to Eastern Infantry.

I tend to only use them as a paper anvil while my horse archers run wide and my Cataphracts wait behind for a counter charge. I think by keeping my heavy hitters behind them it helps the morale issues a lot more.

**Zatoichi** · 10-25-2005, 09:24

Originally Posted by Taiwan Legion

how come your map are on the top right?

He's using minimal UI. You can do this by changing “MINIMUM_UI:FALSE” to “MINIMUM_UI:TRUE” in the preferences.txt. It gives you more of a STW/MTW feel to the battlefield.

Back on topic - I've never had much joy with Eastern Infantry on the battlefield, except as a speed bump or flanking unit as others have mentioned. I've not tried them in 1.3 yet though, I'm still playing through my BI campaigns.

**gmjapan** · 10-25-2005, 10:52

A single unit of Eastern Infantry insta-routed my Cataphracts. They collided, turned flashing white and were reduced to 3 men, from a full unit, in the length of time it took to read the word "collided" above. The very first conflict of the campaign (1.2).

I was following the advice in the Guides subforum where it says "nothing can stop the Cataphracts you get at the start" and combined it with the opinion that "Eastern Inf are the worst unit above peasant" to come to the conclusion that I should have won that little clash and charged right in.

I have since formed my own opinions about East Inf and their uses. As said above, use them to tie enemy units up while better units manouver around. They can be repaired almost anywhere you go so you can throw them into the fray without a second thought. They can buy you time, hold up chariots, tie up infantry and be deployed to engage across a very wide line. You name it and they will stand toe-to-toe with and make it stay there for a considerable time... they just cant kill it.

Worth their weight in gold in my opinion, well, in denari anyway.

"Ah, mere infantry - poor beggars!"

**Garvanko** · 10-25-2005, 12:08

Great replies all round.

Nevertheless, its all very well doing 1 v 1 tests against Iberians, Hillmen and Town Watch. But in the campaign, where the AI spawns out huge armies full of Eastern Infantry, even with their Cav bonus, even at times with silver chevrons, they still get absolutely tonked.

Poor morale, sure. But a very poor unit nonetheless. Eastern Infantry should measure up to Hastati, Iberians, Militia Hoplites, Levy Pikemen, Nubian Spearmen etc, but they don't, even with superior numbers.

**aw89** · 10-25-2005, 13:02

Originally Posted by Garvanko

I couldn't hold back any longer.

Me neither

**Kraxis** · 10-25-2005, 14:17

Originally Posted by Garvanko

Poor morale, sure. But a very poor unit nonetheless. Eastern Infantry should measure up to Hastati, Iberians, Militia Hoplites, Levy Pikemen, Nubian Spearmen etc, but they don't, even with superior numbers.

What?! Not at all. The Eastern Infantry and their Merc counterparts are the representatives of the old Persian tradition crancking out huge numbers of lousy levies. These men are just peasants with a shield and spear. The others are either professionals or trained citizen troops.

**Celt Centurion** · 10-27-2005, 21:41

Originally Posted by The Stranger

they are not useless i used them alot when playing as Rebels, they held down every friggin unit at all bridges

How do you set it to play as rebels? That sounds like it would be really interesting. Perhaps I will play as them next, and bring chaos to the world!

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion