Faction names.

[Craterus]

Complete faction list is:

Rome (probably 4 factions though it has not been revealed how they will be divided) (Roma)
gauls (aedui)
germans (sweboz)
Iberians
Carthaginians (tsorim)
Britons (casse)
Macedonians (makedonia)
Allied Hellenes
Bactrians (Baktria)
Parthians (parni)
Sarmatians (sauromatae)
Pontus (pontos)
Seleucids (arche seleukia)
Ptolemeics (ptolemaoi)
Armenians
Thracians
Dacians
Rebels (eleutheroi)

The Aedui were the largest Gallic tribe, I'll give you that. But just because something is the largest, does it mean you refer an entire race by it's name? By this rule, all Americans are Texans. Historically, Gauls were known as Gauls. They had their individual tribes, but unless you are going to use faction slots to accomodate for all the tribes, don't refer to Gauls by the name of one tribe.

Historically, Carthaginians were known as Carthaginians. I have read a few history books about Carthage and I've never heard the term Tsorim. The Romans referred to them as Carthaginians, so why aren't you?

Why do you feel it is necessary to change the name of every faction? CA might not have made the best game, but I think they were "spot-on" with the faction names (bar the Romans). Why do you feel it is necessary to change the name of every faction? The only reason I can think of is that you want to make the game "your own".

If you want me to believe your names are even close to historical reality, give me reference, authors, book titles etc.

[Reverend Joe]

Oh, dear god no.

[cunobelinus]

To add to that: CASSE, as far as I0 know and i have read a few books on briton and the celts, was only a small tribe and was not the name of the whole country. I also agree with him on the point of Gaul. Also the rebels were not called Eleutheroi by any stretch of your imagination. They were known as lots of different names, all under different rulers, but you cant really do that with the number of faction slots available..

Also, the Parthians were not called Parni. They were called Parthians. I could understand if you called them Persians, but not Parni.

[Sheep]

I'll take this one.

Also the rebels were not called Eleutheroi by any stretch of your imagination.

Well what WOULD you call the collection of rebels rolled into one giant faction that hard-coding forces us to have? They can't name the faction in every language of every rebel province in the game. Greek was a very common language in the Mediterranean and beyond around 270BC, so why not name the faction in Greek?

The Aedui were the largest Gallic tribe, I'll give you that. But just because something is the largest, does it mean you refer an entire race by it's name?

You'd be right... if EB was referring to the entire "race" of Gauls. But they aren't, they are referring to the specific tribal confederation known as the Aedui. The faction doesn't represent all the Gauls... it doesn't hold all the Gallic territory... just that of the Aedui and their allies. The other Gauls are represented by rebels in rebel provinces (assuming they haven't been hiding an Arverni faction from us). Representing the entire Gallic "race" as one unified faction in 270BC is just as historically inaccurate as referring to the entire collection of Gallic tribes as the Aedui, which you seem to have a problem with. So EB decided to just pick one tribe and go with that.

Historically, Carthaginians were known as Carthaginians. I have read a few history books about Carthage and I've never heard the term Tsorim. The Romans referred to them as Carthaginians, so why aren't you?

EB doesn't give a flip what the Romans called the Carthaginians, they are interested in what the Carthaginians called the Carthaginians. Factions are named (as best as possible) using the native tongue OF THE FACTION ITSELF.

That being said, EB has already scrapped the name "Tsorim" and I think they are now using "Karthadashtim" or something to that effect... basically "Carthaginians" in Phoenician.

Why do you feel it is necessary to change the name of every faction?

Couple reasons:

1) To make the content of the faction more close to historical accuracy, for most of the barbarian factions, EB has settled on using one single tribe to represent. This has resulted in a number of very specific names, such as Casse for the Britons (representing only one tribe in one province in Britannia), the Suebi for the Germans (representing a tribal confederacy in only a few provinces in Germania), the afore-mentioned Aedui for the Gauls, and the Getai for the Thracians/Dacians (another single powerful tribe). These tribes DO NOT represent all the tribes of their ethnic group, and WILL NOT hold all the territory historically held cumulatively by those tribes, just the territory and people that belonged to those SPECIFIC tribes. If there was no faction limit, EB would represent each major tribe or confederation of tribes with its own faction. But there is a faction limit, so this is the compromise they have made.

2) To name the factions in their own tongue. You may wish to play the game from a Roman perspective, but not everyone does. I'm pretty sure the Armenians didn't go around calling themselves Armenians in 270BC. They more likely used "Hayasdan" to describe their nation (such as it was). This is the same reason that all the units are named in their native tongues, instead of English words like "Armenian skirmishers" or "Sarmatian horse archers." It's about immersion... from ANY faction's perspective.

If you want me to believe your names are even close to historical reality, give me reference, authors, book titles etc.

Let's see your references that all of the peoples near the Mediterranean named themselves in English (or Latin) in 270BC. C'mon, I want to see where the Parthians called themselves "Parthians".

We're waiting.

[Antagonist]

I don't think the "tribal" factions such as the Aedui and Casse are intended to represent the entire "faction" they are conceived to belong to. If you look at the most recent faction map you can see that the Casse, for example, do not control or represent the entire of Britain, only a single area of it.

[the_handsome_viking]

we're going to learn, no matter how much we kick and scream.

after playing this mod youll be speaking classical latin.

[Sheep]

I might add that the list in the first post is extremely old. There is now only one Roman faction and Thrace and Dacia have been combined as well. We await announcement of the last mystery faction!

[Sarcasm]

...And these guys win awards?

[Moros]

EB doesn't give a flip what the Romans called the Carthaginians, they are interested in what the Carthaginians called the Carthaginians. Factions are named (as best as possible) using the native tongue OF THE FACTION ITSELF.

That being said, EB has already scrapped the name "Tsorim" and I think they are now using "Karthadashtim" or something to that effect... basically "Carthaginians" in Phoenician.

Isn't Karthadashtim the name of the city? I believed the Phoenicians named it Karthadashtim and that it meant "New city" in phoenician.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

If we want to just have a faction of Gauls that represent the places the Aedui controlled in 272 (instead of *all* "Gallic" lands), then we should name them what they called themselves (the group we are depicting) in 272, or what best represents that particular faction. Sometimes it's the area (Baktria) when no known political or ethnic grouping would be better. Sometimes it's a political entity when different regions and ethnicities are held together by a strong government (Arche Seleukeia, the Ptolemaioi). Sometimes it's ethnicity or even "sub-ethnicity" when we depict only a certain group of people who are tied together in a different way (like Aedui or Pahlava). It varies from faction to faction, but it is incredibly ignorant to barge in here and say "If you want me to believe your names are even close to historical reality, give me reference, authors, book titles etc." I, for one, could care less whether you believe it or not. But as a professional in this field, when I reflect upon the names we are using, and the rigorous and intensive process we went through to get them, I get plenty of good sleep at night.

edit: oh, Eleutheroi. Yeah, that one was tough. There's no word to refer to all other peoples. Nothing. They aren't "rebels" (lame term to refer to nomadic peoples, smaller "empires", ethnicities, etc. that are all lumped together). So "free peoples" is what we chose. What language to put it in? Greek is clearly the most common language, though it can't cover everyone. It's better than latin (a second choice maybe), in 272 though. So we put "free peoples" in greek and that's that.

edit2: Can't resist. This is now one of my favorite sentences! "Historically, Carthaginians were known as Carthaginians." Sweet!!!

[Ranika]

As for the Casse; they were a small tribe. Individually. Technically, so were the Aedui; only a small percentage of those in the Aedui's confederation were actually members of the Aedui tribe specifically. However, the Aedui were politically in control of substantial lands and sub-tribes that get lumped into 'Aedui'. The Casse were little different. The Cenimages (proto-Iceni) were part of them, and most tribes in the region around them had yielded to them. Until they were replaced (non-violently, at that; it was a political movement) by the Catuvellaunians, none but the Brigantes had as much stability in terms of a kingdom in Britain, and the Brigantes hardly managed any expansion; the Casse, and then Catuvellaunians brought most of Britain under their control (though they dealt with rebellions, insurrections, and all other manner of treachery; culminating in the exile, or arrest and execution, of pro-Roman nobles, which brought the island to Roman intentions again, about 100 years after Caesar; pro-Roman nobles from all over the southern 2/3rds of Britain had to flee, so far stretched was the arm of the Catuvellaunians).

It would be incorrect to call them Britons; this they surely didn't call themselves; they adopted 'Pretan', and called themselves 'Pretannae' according to a few sources, from Greeks, and sometimes modified it as 'Pryten'; this was modified by Romans into 'Briton', but since the faction does not initially encompass all peoples known as 'Pretannae', this would be inappropriate anyway to call them; they had a specific identity.

In Gaul, again, the faction has a specific identity (I'm more or less going to take this chance to explain the situation of Gaul again). They aren't 'Gauls', they are the Aedui Confederation; a long-standing body of tribes with a senate-like governmental body adjudicated by magistrates who organize local chiefs and kings to the service of a central proto-federal body, not unlike modern republics (they even had elected officials at every tier of government; this isn't just Celtic bloviating, the Romans mention it, and it's part of the reason the Aedui and Romans got along originally; they were governed essentially the same way and had a cultural understanding); it's a specific political body that was vying for control of Gaul (and legally, at that; they technically did inherit control of the entire kingdom of Gaul from the Biturges, but poor efforts against the Belgae and Germanic tribes caused a massive loss of faith, and the region split into various warring kingdoms and confederations). They weren't 'Gaul'; there were numerous bodies that believed they had the right to control Gaul, specifically the Arverni; the most militant of those who broke away, under the leadership of a Verrix (literally 'super-king' or 'great-king'; it's essentially 'high king'), an elected office that was passed through tanistry (electing a replacement before the current official dies, usually, but not always by any means, from the current official's family). The Arverni were eventually edged out in power in this 'over-kingdom' (commonly called an 'alliance', but in truth, the 'allies' of whichever tribe was in control of the Verrix were more or less his puppets) by their allies, the Sequanes. Again, this is a political body. Other bodies included the Aquitanni Alliance; an alliance between the Basque-Celtic Aquitanni, and their king (the Aquitanorix; literally 'King of Aquitane') and the Lemovicians (and their vassals). They were less concerned with conquest of Gaul though, and more concerned with keeping themselves indepedent (which they failed to do; both, at different times, had to yield to either the Aedui or Arverni, and, of course, eventually to the Romans). There were also the Armoricans, a collection of partially Belgic-Gauls (Belgae had settled down there during their invasions of Gaul, after the invasion was put down by the Carnutes), but they had little concern for anything but trade, and again, personal indepedence (though they yielded to the Aedui).

With the Aedui and Casse, or any other barbarian factions, we aren't trying to represent a 'race', we are trying to represent local political bodies that were most influential in their regions during this period in history. Like the Germans; the Sweboz were a powerful confederacy. They are a logical selection for the region. It would be incorrect just to have the 'Germanic tribes'; they weren't all in cahoots; many of them flatly made war on one another. Again, a political body that was influential in the region.

While these were tribal names, they were also the names by which their whole lands were lumped. They are at once a tribal name, and a political name.

As for other names, we select names that are appropriate for the regions' language(s) (as best we can understand them in certain cases when their language is mostly lost). Carthage never called themselves Carthage. They will recieve an appropriate Punic name (though I believe with an anglicized spelling; Punic languages lack vowels, which would make it a right bastard to read if one is unfamiliar). Tsorim, if I recall, was the name Phoenicians called themselves, but I'm also pretty sure we've decided to change that to a political body name, or a somewhat recognizable, but appropriate name, so it'll likely be the Punic name of Carthage. It isn't just to be different from the vanilla game; we want the game to feel immersive. If you're playing as the Aedui, your generals aren't 'Gallic' generals, they're chiefs and chief-magistrates of the Aedui confederation. Hell, they spend a lot of their time fighting other Gallic generals. It's impossible to be immersive as we want, but we aren't going to throw up our hands and determine it's best just to leave it alone when there is something we can do to make it any more immersive for ALL players. Using Roman or anglicized names for all factions breaks a lot of that immersion, unless one is playing Romans (and even the Romans tended to address others by their proper names in their company); Caesar himself spoke Gallic because it was impolite of him to ask his Gallic friends (of which he had many; he didn't just fight the Gauls, he was an ally of numerous Gauls) to speak Latin (which most Gallic aristocracy spoke, in addition to Greek) while they were in Gaul.


Also, I agree with the use of Eleutheroi. No language was in wider use than Greek. Even Celts, who controlled a substantial amount of territory, did not have as wide-spoken a single language; they had numerous languages. However, almost all Celtic aristocracy spoke Greek (it was considered improper not to) and had an appreciation for Greek language. That alone causes the Greek language to stretch in use over most of Europe, even far from any territory that was ever under a Hellenic nation's control.

[Steppe Merc]

Our names were based on as much as we could get possible to what they would have spoke. The Parthians did not call themselves Parthians, they (as far as we can tell) called themselves Pahlava.

For the groups of peoples, we have selected the most powerful tribe to occupy that tribe's lands, not neighbouring tribes. The exception is the Sauromatae, who were put into one faction do to the extremely fluid nature of their people. If we had an Aorsi faction, that faction would also include Scythians, Roxolani, and other peoples. By having one Sauromatae tribe (but not giving them all of the land controlled by the Sauromatae), we can represent one tribe that, as they expand, would incorporate the Aorsi, Roxolani, and other tribes without holding the land that all of those peoples controlled.

[Craterus]

edit2: Can't resist. This is now one of my favorite sentences! "Historically, Carthaginians were known as Carthaginians." Sweet!!!

Let's do a survey shall we?

You go out and ask people what they think Kadasthim (I don't care how it's spelt) represents, and I'll go and ask people what they think Carthage represents/was.

Fine, put it in the native language, but does the native language mean anything to anyone anymore? I think not.

...And these guys win awards?

Are you saying I don't deserve an award because I don't like EB? Because I don't share the opinion of just about everyone else?

Let's stop talking about historical proof, because we've just got proof that you're a ********.

Thank you everyone else, my questions have been answered.

[Sarcasm]

Are you saying I don't deserve an award because I don't like EB? Because I don't share the opinion of just about everyone else?

Let's stop talking about historical proof, because we've just got proof that you're a ********.

Nope. It's your attitude that sucks, you're entitled to an opinion just like everyone else. Did it even cross your mind that some of these guys have knowledge you don't even have access to?

As for the second phrase. Heh. Go play somewhere else.

[Craterus]

I've searched most of these names on Google (amongst other search engines) and I've also been to the library. I have never heard of any of them. Neither has the library, so it seems.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Just go away. You have nothing other than "this is what people call them today"... "I think".

I teach latin and greek for a living. As it concerns this mod and this game, I could care less if some schmuck on the street doesn't know what "Romani" are. That is what the Romans would have referred to themselves as (among other names as well - but never "Romans"), and as we have long decided on using native names for immersion, that is what we will use too. This mod is fun, historically as accurate as a mod for a game can be, and it's very educational too. If you don't want to learn things about these ancient peoples and their civilizations and styles of war, just keep playing vanilla RTW. Why come over here and harass us and our choices to make the game immersive and educational? Did the ancient Romans kill your dog or something? Or did the Greek language burn down your treehouse?

[jerby]

Let's stop talking about historical proof, because we've just got proof that you're a ********.

there is historical proof the "carthaginians" refeered to themselves as "Karthadasim" (if i'm not mastaking) btu for the rest..

it's just a matter of perspective.
the faction-workers on Carthage just don't liek to refer to their "favorite" faction in the Latin way....

by calling each faction in their native tongue it gives a nice feel to teh faction, showign their cultural differences etc.

Might be a longshot: if we woudl call them all in Latin/Greek...why wouldn't we call each Unit "greek phalanx guys" "Germanic javelineers" and "parthian horse archers" what would be the difference?

[Steppe Merc]

I've searched most of these names on Google (amongst other search engines) and I've also been to the library. I have never heard of any of them. Neither has the library, so it seems.

Google is a very poor search engine for historical research.

And why is using the real name worse than bastardized English versions? If someone can't figure out that Romani means Romans, then they shouldn't be playing EB...

[Craterus]

I thought EB was supposed to be for everyone.
It seems very specific as to who can play and who cannot...

Fair enough, I understand your views and reasons, and I hadn't seen the latest version of the map..

[Kralizec]

Why is the faction of Makedon named as such and not Antigonids (in Greek, of course) like the other diadochi states, the Seleucids and the Ptolemies?

[cunobelinus]

u can all shut up except craterus .We are right .U are trying to be big and clever and are not .So shut up and listen.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

I thought EB was supposed to be for everyone.
It seems very specific as to who can play and who cannot...

How is anyone being stopped from playing?

[Craterus]

How is anyone being stopped from playing?

then they shouldn't be playing EB...

Point proved...

[Byzantine Mercenary]

i think what Steppe Merc meant, was that they wouldn't be interested in the mod not that they wouldn't be able to use it

[cunobelinus]

As for the Casse; they were a small tribe. Individually. Technically, so were the Aedui.

do we have to prove our point anymore than that they were not the hole country!!!!

[Ranika]

It doesn't matter that they weren't the whole country; they were the main political body with any substantial amount of power in the region. And by your argument, it's still incorrect to call the Aedui 'Gauls' or the Casse 'Britons'; because they aren't the whole body of Gauls or Britons either (in fact, they make up a substantially smaller portion in those cases).

[cunobelinus]

exactly we were right.

[Byzantine Mercenary]

right? how!!
who would you use to represent the gauls then?

[cunobelinus]

But did they own the country and were all the britons and gauls called that ?

I DONT THINK SO!!!!!

[Byzantine Mercenary]

yes but they are the nearest your gonna get