Poll: Will anyone be indicted over Plamegate?

[Hurin_Rules]

Post your bets here, ladies and gentlemen, and return to crow or backtrack once Fitgerald concludes his investigation (sometime this week, in all likelihood).

The Question: who will be indicted?

[solypsist]

i don't see how it matters. the american people will fart, roll over, and go back to sleep, and completely forget this whole incident (and all the others) around next election time. all the blogs in the world can hoot and hollar for rove's head and it won't change a thing.

[Aurelian]

Oh, but it matters, it matters!

First off, a round of indictments will make me very happy.

Secondly, if the weasels in the White House are turning on each other and expending all their time and mental energy defending themselves against perjury, conspiracy, or other charges... then they have less time to figure out how to ruin the country.

Thirdly, if indictments come down it will give reporters carte blanche to talk about the White House Iraq Group, doctored intelligence, and all the fun nooks and crannies of Bushite misdeeds.

Fourth, some indictments in the Plame case would go wonderfully with a plate of Jack Abramoff, a side of Tom Delay, and a glass of Bill Frist. Once those various scandals are public knowledge, just about the whole Republican power structure will have been tainted in one way or another.


Now, I agree that a lot of Americans are dumbasses. There was just a poll saying that over 50% of Americans don't believe in evolution. That's probably the same 50% that voted for Bush. However, if more people find out about the sleazy way the Republican leadership works, and they connect it with the crappy war we have going, the borrow and spend economic policies, and the massive levels of incompetence... then some of them might wake up and change their mind come the next election.

Let's hope that we can all say "Merry Fitzmas!" sometime this week.

[Xiahou]

Let's hope that we can all say "Merry Fitzmas!" sometime this week.

Wow, somebody reads their liberal blogs.

I'm not really expecting any indictments... If anything, maybe they'll muster a perjury or obstruction of justice indictment against Scooter- depends if the NYT is full of crap or not.

I'd love to see Wilson indicted for lying to Congress... but Im not really expecting it... at all

[Aurelian]

By the way, I don't think I can even take the survey because so much depends on who rolls over for the prosecutor. It looks like most of the attention at the moment is focused on the Vice President's office. A couple of Cheney's aides are actively cooperating with Fitzgerald.

The VP himself could very well be a target. Even Bush could become an "unindicted co-conspirator" ala Nixon during Watergate. Recent stories made it clear that while Bush was claiming not to know who leaked the information, and was expressing his desire to the public to 'get to the bottom of the matter', Rove had already told the president that he, and presumably others on his staff, had been involved!

Libby and Rove both were called before the grand jury repeatedly. It does seem as if they changed their story at different times and were called back to "clarify" their previous statements. That could leave them both open to perjury or obstruction of justice charges.

The same is true of Judy Miller. She conveniently seemed to have "forgotten" about an early conversation she had with Scooter Libby regarding Plame... until she was reminded by Fitzgerald who was able to wave in her face the Secret Service paperwork recording the date and time of their meeting. Only then did she dig out her notes of the session.

Again, so much depends on things that we can't know at the moment: deals, perjury traps, just how much paperwork the White House managed to shred before Fitzgerald could get his hands on it...

I'm almost certain though that there will be some indictments. The leaks that there have been all point in that direction. The fact that Fitzgerald just put up a website also seems to indicate that he isn't prepared to shut down his operation just yet.

Hopefully, there will be some super-sexy indictments having to do with national security statutes, but I'll be happy with anything that will hold these guys accountable for the way they vindictively and maliciously "rat___" anybody that stands up to them.

One of the joys of this case is that the White House made a bunch of stupid denials and outright lies early on because they assumed that, as a Justice Department matter, Ashcroft would make sure that nothing ever came of the investigation. Luckily for us, the Justice Department prosecutors were so alarmed at the kinds of things that were being said, and the cavalier way Rove was handling the issue that they pressured Ashcroft to recuse himself from the case and appoint Fitzgerald. Of course, the CIA played a crucial role in pressing the issue as well. It would be nice to see the serious career professionals win a victory over the Mayberry Machiavellis on this one.

[Hurin_Rules]

I voted for Libby, but I think this could well draw in many others: Cheney, Miller, possibly even the president.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I'd love to see Wilson indicted for lying to Congress... but Im not really expecting it... at all

Well he is the only one here who should be indicted. Now wouldnt that be a hoot. American justice at its best.

[Xiahou]

I say we chuck em all in jail, and beat every member of congress and the senate over the head with a shoe until they resign. Then start fresh.

2 words- term limits.

[Aurelian]

Well, I thought today might be Fitzmas, but it looks as if the grand jury went home for the day. There was a suggestion that there might be some indictments announced this afternoon with a press conference tomorrow, but it now looks like they might hold off until tomorrow or Friday.

Anyway, here are some of today's Fitzmas-related news goodies:

According to "Raw Story", Fitzgerald tried to cut a deal with Rove (probably yesterday) where he would plead guilty to perjury in exchange for a reduced sentence, and not be charged with obstruction of justice. Rove reportedly turned that deal down. If true, that means that Fitzgerald will undoubtedly be going for a Rove indictment... probably on perjury and obstruction charges... possibly more.

They also reported that the prosecutor will be asking the grand jury to indict Scooter Libby on perjury, obstruction of justice, and knowingly outing a covert operative. Apparently two other (non-White House) officials are also facing charges.

Richard Sale (whose reporting has apparently been very reliable) also had some interesting material:

1) Fitzgerald has apparently gone to the presiding judge and asked him to extend the grand jury process. It appears that he has a number of other targets in his sights, and he intends to continue the investigation.

2) "Federal law enforcement officers" suggested to Sale that "Fitzgerald was likely to charge the people indicted with violating Joe Wilson's civil rights, smearing his name in an attempt to destroy his ability to earn a living in Washington as a consultant... The civil rights charge is said to include "the conspiracy was committed using U.S. government offices, buildings, personnel and funds," one federal law enforcement official said... Other charges could include possible violations of U.S. espionage laws, including the mishandling of U.S. classified information, these sources said."

3) It looks as if Cheney has been the center of a lot of attention. The White House has apparently received very detailed "questionaires" trying to pin Cheney down on what he knew and when he knew it.

Another little detail today... apparently the prosecution has been going door-to-door in the Wilson's neighborhood and asking all of their friends and neighbors whether they had any knowledge of Plame's job or covert status. It would appear that they are trying to clear up the (occasionally argued) notion that her status was "common knowledge". The quotes from her neighbors suggested that her career was not common knowledge amongst her neighborhood friends. LINK

[Hurin_Rules]

Looks like we'll have to wait till Friday, but it is almost certain now that Fitzgerald has asked the grand jury to produce indictments.

Washington is on tip-toes waiting for this. Should be very, very interesting.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Looks like we'll have to wait till Friday, but it is almost certain now that Fitzgerald has asked the grand jury to produce indictments.

Washington is on tip-toes waiting for this. Should be very, very interesting.

And if friday comes and theres still no indicments then what? You liberals have been on tip toes ever since this came out. Your like a bunch of kids waiting for santa to arrive with your christmas present. What will you do if he leaves nothing but a clump of coal?

[Hurin_Rules]

And if friday comes and theres still no indicments then what? You liberals have been on tip toes ever since this came out. Your like a bunch of kids waiting for santa to arrive with your christmas present. What will you do if he leaves nothing but a clump of coal?

The grand jury is set to expire tomorrow, that's why everyone is concentrating on it.

If nothing comes of it, fine. We'll just have to wait another year till the Democrats take back congress and we can finally have independent investigations of all of these matters.

The tone of this post has been reasonably civil up to now, and I hope you won't poison it Gawain.

[Redleg]

My thoughts on this particuler subject is wait and see. There is enough waffling and mashing of teeth on the issue coming from the White House staff that something might actually be in the works. Will someone be indicted over the outing - is something that one must wait for on baited breath.

If nothing comes of it, fine. We'll just have to wait another year till the Democrats take back congress and we can finally have independent investigations of all of these matters.

But if anyone thinks Fitzgerald did not at least give an honest effort, is only fooling themselves.

As one article states - investigators don't go canvasing the neighborhood of the victim if they are just giving the investigation lip-service.

[Hurin_Rules]

But if anyone thinks Fitzgerald did not at least give an honest effort, is only fooling themselves.

As one article states - investigators don't go canvasing the neighborhood of the victim if they are just giving the investigation lip-service.

That's what I think too, Redleg. I will be very surprised if nothing at all comes of this.

I guess we'll just have to wait till tomorrow to see :)

[Redleg]

That's what I think too, Redleg. I will be very surprised if nothing at all comes of this.

I guess we'll just have to wait till tomorrow to see :)

Yep - it should be an interesting day in the media -

[Aurelian]

And if friday comes and theres still no indicments then what? You liberals have been on tip toes ever since this came out. Your like a bunch of kids waiting for santa to arrive with your christmas present. What will you do if he leaves nothing but a clump of coal?

Then we'll weep softly and turn our attention back to Delay, Frist, Abramoff, and that Noe guy who just got indicted in Ohio.

But luckily, since we've been good little boys and girls this year, I think Saint Fitzolas is going to leave us a bunch of nicely wrapped indictments (with little bows on them) under the Fitzmas Tree.

[Red Harvest]

My thoughts on this particuler subject is wait and see. There is enough waffling and mashing of teeth on the issue coming from the White House staff that something might actually be in the works. Will someone be indicted over the outing - is something that one must wait for on baited breath.

I didnt' really think the investigation was going to go that far, unless there was a cover up. From the outside there sure appears to be one.

There was a change in poise of the whole administration about a week to 10 days after Katrina. While I thought the Katrina backlash might have been the reason, I also wondered if something else big was afoot. What I've heard so far suggests there was a whole lot more going on here. But there is not much hard to go on. Hence, wait and see.

The difference is the change in tone of the administration, and attempts by GOP functionaries to distance themselves, even before Miers. And where the heck is Cheney? He hasn't been this invisible in a long time. Last time I saw him in the news was when someone in Mississippi hurled a "Go .... yourself Mr. Cheney."

Lots of smoke, but is there fire?

[Hurin_Rules]

Libby has just been indicted. More in a minute.

[Hurin_Rules]

Top Cheney aide Libby indicted
Lawyer for Bush confidant Rove says his client is safe for now

BREAKING NEWS
NBC News and news services
Updated: 12:46 p.m. ET Oct. 28, 2005
WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, was indicted Friday on five charges that include obstruction of justice, making false statements and perjury in the investigation into the leak of a covert CIA agent’s name.

The indictment could trigger a shake-up at the White House, already on the defensive over the response to Hurricane Katrina, opposition to the Iraq war and the withdrawal of President Bush’s nominee for the U.S. Supreme Court, Harriet Miers.

Details were to be outlined at 2 p.m. ET, when Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald will hold a press conference at the Justice Department. The grand jury that handed up the indictment had been hearing the case for nearly two years and its term expires Friday.

Fitzgerald and his investigators have been trying to determine whether Libby or any other administration officials knowingly revealed the identity of CIA agent Valerie Plame or lied about their involvement to investigators. Her husband is diplomat Joseph Wilson, an opponent of the Iraq war who challenged Bush’s assertion that Saddam Hussein was trying to secure nuclear materials.

Libby is considered Cheney’s alter ego, a chief architect of the war with Iraq. Any trial of Libby would give the public a rare glimpse into Cheney’s influential role in the West Wing and his behind-the-scenes lobbying for war.

Though he has worked in relative obscurity, Libby is one of the administration’s influential advisers because of his proximity to Cheney, one of the most powerful vice presidents in history.

The leak case has put a spotlight on the sometimes aggressive tactics the White House uses to counter critics of the Iraq war. It has also focused attention on the administration’s shifting justifications for the 2003 invasion, from the threat of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction -- which were never found -- to a need to spread democracy.

Rove’s situation
Presidential confidant Karl Rove is also being investigated, but his lawyer said he was not being indicted, at least for now.

“The Special Counsel has advised Mr. Rove that he has made no decision about whether or not to bring charges and that Mr. Rove’s status has not changed,” Robert Luskin said in a statement Friday. “Mr. Rove will continue to cooperate fully with the Special Counsel’s efforts to complete the investigation. We are confident that when the Special Counsel finishes his work, he will conclude that Mr. Rove has done nothing wrong.”

The lack of an indictment against Rove is a mixed outcome for the administration. It keeps in place the president’s top adviser, the architect of his political machine whose fingerprints can be found on virtually every policy that emerges from the White House.

But leaving Rove in legal jeopardy keeps Bush and his team working on problems like the Iraq war, a Supreme Court vacancy and slumping poll ratings beneath a dark cloud of uncertainty.

When the investigation began two years ago, a White House spokesman checked with Rove and Libby, then assured the public that neither was involved in leaking Plame’s name.

But in the past month, it was revealed that Libby spoke to New York Times reporter Judith Miller, who says their conversations included Plame’s CIA status.

On July 7, the president told reporters that if anyone in his administration committed a crime in connection with the leak, that person “will no longer work in my administration.” Weeks later, he backpedaled from that assertion.

Rove’s legal problems stem in part from the fact that he failed initially to disclose to prosecutors a conversation in which he told Time magazine reporter Matt Cooper that Plame worked for the CIA. The president’s top political adviser says the conversation slipped his mind.

Columnist Robert Novak revealed Plame’s name and her CIA status on July 14, 2003. That was five days after Novak talked to Rove and eight days after Wilson published an opinion article in the Times accusing the Bush administration of twisting intelligence to exaggerate the threat posed by Iraq.

Wilson and his supporters have charged the leak of Plame’s name, which ended her ability to work undercover for the CIA, was designed to discredit him and punish him for his criticism and intimidate others inside the government critical of Bush’s Iraq policies.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9837835/

Well Gawain, I guess Christmas has come to liberals after all.

[Goofball]

Well, I'm glad I waited to vote. I vote Libby!

Haha!

I got it right!

[Xiahou]

Just shows that honesty is the best policy I guess- if Libby had been consistent and kept his story straight, nothing would have come of this.

As a side note- I strongly disagree with the idea that lying to the FBI (or any federal agent) is a crime. It's perfectly legal and fine for them to lie to you about evidence, testimony, or anything else they want, but if you get tripped up and say something not true- they nail your ass to the wall.

As a side, side note- I realize that Libby would've still been indicted for lying to the grand jury, which is and should be a crime.

[solypsist]

i fully agree.

As a side note- I strongly disagree with the idea that lying to the FBI (or any federal agent) is a crime. It's perfectly legal and fine for them to lie to you about evidence, testimony, or anything else they want, but if you get tripped up and say something not true- they nail your ass to the wall.

[Red Harvest]

I'm not really expecting any indictments... If anything, maybe they'll muster a perjury or obstruction of justice indictment against Scooter- depends if the NYT is full of crap or not.

So does this mean that they are not full of crap?

Now the bets will be on whether there are more to follow. I suspect Rove still has a 50/50 chance of being indicted. With Libby indicted, Cheney is going to get pulled in to testify...so things could get very interesting. A conspiracy charge would not surprise me. If Rove is indicted, then a conspiracy charge would naturally come out of it.

Since Fitz is saying the investigation will continue, I suspect the conspiracy aspect is likely to move to the focus. Seems unlikely that the investigation would continue without further indictments. If anything, indicting one now is likely to shake some more things loose.

[Red Harvest]

i fully agree.

I disagree, but on the grounds that I don't believe the FBI should be able to lie to or about the accused either. This is a real weakness of our legal system. It is the main reason folks can use to oppose the death penalty: overzealous officers/prosecuters using illegal and/or improper tactics to frame the wrong person. When such cases are revealed, I believe those responsible should be in serious legal jeopardy themselves.

[DojoRat]

i fully agree.

I guess I'm turning into an old fuddy duddy but I disagree.

You have the right to remain silent.

If one chooses to mislead the FBI as an act of civil disobedience, fine, but if you're not held accountable the act becomes meaningless.

Back to Libby. I just heard Fitzgerald on the Radio and it sounds like he has Libby dead to right for perjury and obstruction. I mean his testimony was so far from the truth (according to the indictment) you have to wonder who was giving Libby leagal advice?

I'm sure somehow the liberal elite is to blame, I just haven't made up the facts yet

[Redleg]

.

Back to Libby. I just heard Fitzgerald on the Radio and it sounds like he has Libby dead to right for perjury and obstruction. I mean his testimony was so far from the truth (according to the indictment) you have to wonder who was giving Libby leagal advice?

I to listen to Fitzgerald on the radio as I drove to work this afternoon. I think he handled himself well giving what information he could and did a great job on trying to explain the process. I found it rather amusing the number of times reporters tried to get him to given investigation information and possible future charges on people. He handled them well from what I could tell from his voice. I wonder how the video went?

All in all - I would say Fitzgerald is giving it an honest and as open an investigation as he could.

I liked his baseball anology of the umpire getting sand thrown in his face when asked about why it was an obstruction charge and not a leak charge - that was good in my opinion.

[DojoRat]

Yes I was struck by Fitzgerald as well, he seems like a guy who dots his eyes and crosses his tees (I sound like my old man).

It was less than a year ago that this administration saw itself on top of the world.

Wow what a sea change. And I think it was Katrina that did the damage. The war was becoming unpopular, true, but real opposition to it would only be brought by the left which they felt they could ignore.

The inept response to Katrina (or the perception of it) changed things.
It was ok know to criticize them, there were no troops to support, they were seen as having let Americans down.

The political invulnerability of this administration was broken. Now they can't seem to do anything right.

The Miers nomination is a case in point. Why didn't they run her by the senate before she was named. It's politics 101, if you don't have the votes you don't let it come to a vote.

Of course into this will ride the savior from the Democratic Party, the bold visionary, the champion of the everyman, that great Senator from..... no, no that governor from... no, well, a ... sigh. Never mind

[Redleg]

Of course into this will ride the savior from the Democratic Party, the bold visionary, the champion of the everyman, that great Senator from..... no, no that governor from... no, well, a ... sigh. Never mind

Yes indeed that will be a problem for the next election cycle - the inablity for the Democratic Party to take advantage of the problems and loss of political pestige the current adminstration and the GOP now must face.

Now we must wait and see how the election cycle goes - it will be a negative campaign season with lots of mud slinging going on. I wonder how many real issues will be presented in the campaigns for the senators up for re-election and the representives who all must go through the cycle again.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

hisis pretty sad. I was impressed by what a moron Fitz is. There was no crime commited in the first place to even launch ths investigation other than the CIA trying to cover its own butt and ask for one because they messed up and sent Wilson there in the first place. What ever happened to the original charge? Hes guilty of covering up something that wasnt a crime. If had just claimed the 5th he would be safe. This is nothing more than the criminalization of politics.

[Geoffrey S]

Now we must wait and see how the election cycle goes - it will be a negative campaign season with lots of mud slinging going on. I wonder how many real issues will be presented in the campaigns for the senators up for re-election and the representives who all must go through the cycle again.

This is a prominant aspect of US politics I find distinctly unappealing. Have such practises become noticeably worse relatively recently, or simply more open?