Tactics: What would you do in these situations?

[Duke John]

For my current project I am researching what drives a player to make certain tactical decisions. So I would like to ask you to look at the following maps and tell me what you would do if you were blue and why.
For this series assume that all troops are equal and that there is no advantage to be gained from the terrain. And don't let your thoughts be limited by the R:TW engine.

Situation 1: Enemy unit positioned to flank:


Situation 2: Enemy forces split equally on flanks.


Situation 3: Enemy has 2 flanking forces and has spread his centre.


In the following situations there is difference in height (dark is low, light is high):

Situation 4: Enemy flanker deployed in valley.


Situation 5: Enemy flanker deployed on hill.


Thanks for any responses

[L'Impresario]

I 'll try quickly replying to this, keeping in mind that all factors between the two forces are equal/similar, apart from positional advantages and ranks.

Situations 1-3
Initially one can take the "mirroring" approach,where you make your formation similar to the enemy's, and then hope there an additional battle element that will aid you (planned or just random but expected) will appear during or just before engagement. But here it's not the case.
So I' d play by the simplest rule in the book: concetration of forces to a weak point, while protecting your own ones.
Here's an example for situation 1, that can be easily applied to the next two scenarios.



The left (esp. unit #1) tries to flank by having a more maneuvrable formation than the middle(mainly #3 , getting its front a bit wider) which may engage or not depending on how units 1 & 2 fare, while #4 is simply waiting to see and evaluate the reactions of the enemy units on its side and guard #3's flanks in case a victory is harder to produce by the mass assault on the left.

Situation 4 requires a similar approach, with movements on the east/west axis towards enemy unit 4, and the same "overpower one flank/hold the other" approach.
Situation 5 is the opposite, that means moving away from the hill.

[Tomisama]

Very interesting DJ

And something many people don’t really give much thought too, to my experience.

I’ll take a shot at this.

Without specifics on player experience, factions involved, and troop type concentrations, I would have to rely initially on a general philosophy. Perhaps some thing from the American Civil War’s most feared commander, and natural born tactician, General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Get there “fustest with the mostest”!

In all five cases, the situations are somewhat precarious, with the potential for being out flanked. But I would take an aggressive path, and in all but the last case, attack the least of theirs with the most of mine.

Situation 1: Enemy unit positioned to flank:
As Alex has shown. Hit their right flank hard two on one, and attempt to peel their line back and encircle those 3 armys from the west, before they could be effectively be joined by their fourth.

Situation 2: Enemy forces split equally on flanks.
Send one army to detain two of theirs, and strike the other two with three of mine.

Situation 3: Enemy has 2 flanking forces and has spread his centre.
The center weakness is a tempting trap, but the situation would be best handled with major emphasis on either flank, which I believe are truly their weakest points.

Possibly split into two army groups of two armys each, and hit both flanks. But that would depend on the individual strengths of the generals on my team

Situation 4: Enemy flanker deployed in valley.
Same as the first situation. Basically four on three, and maybe easier over all, if their fourth army could be caught still on lower ground near the end.

Maybe send one to get him while still at terrain disadvantage.

Situation 5: Enemy flanker deployed on hill.
Just the opposite of the last situation. Try to take possession of the high ground with as many armys as possible as soon as possible.

May leave one army in the west to intimidate their progress, while the others claim the high ground. Again depending on individual strengths of my team members.

[Puzz3D]

Situation 1:
Shift right slightly and attack using 1 and 2 to hold ABC, use 4 to hold D and shoot the gap with unit 3 hitting the ABC line from behind.

Situation 2:
Move 1 2 3 4 quickly to set an attack by 234 on CD using 1 to slowdown the arrival of AB and 4 to flank D.

Situation 3:
Engage A with 1, B with 23 and try to hold the right flank defensively with 4.

Situation 4:
Attack ABC with 234 and use 1 to flank A. D will arrive too late since it has to come up the hill.

Situation5:
Move 1234 to the hill as quickly as possible.

[Tomisama]

Just re-read the question, and realized I had not presented any “whys”.

My reasoning’s are taken from the following concepts. You will be able to tell which ones directly apply

The Ten “Always” Basics For Team Multiplayer.

There are exceptions to every rule. Discuss the exceptions in deployment, but other than these temporary agreements, consider the rules as Always being understood.

As much as possible:

1. Always stick together.
Move to link up, then move together as one coordinated killing machine.

2. Always search for our enemies weakness.
Be ready to take advantage of their over confidence, latency, or forgetfulness. Given enough time in the battle, everyone is subject to these errors. Be on guard for your self and your team mates.

3. Always take the high ground first.
The “number one” objective is to provide this base of operations for the team. If there is a highest hill, you must have it, victory will follow.

4. Always protect our generals.
Keep them out of the action. The loss of your armys leader lowers your whole army’s morale for the rest of the battle. For lack of a general an army was lost, for lack of an army a battle was lost. Keep him safe.

5. Always look to double team a single, or triple a double.
The old hammer and anvil. One or two armys fix the enemies attention, while the others out flank and smash them.

6. Always leave the isolated enemy army until last.
This is pure logic, go after the most of them with the most of our own. The straggling enemy army presents a juicy target but don’t be fooled. The battle is where the majority of the enemy is.

7. Always remember that you may have to become the rear guard for the group.
Moving to link up always leaves a part of the front empty. The army on the most exposed flank will be at risk of being out flanked. If that should happen, it could mean disaster for the whole team. Be ready to fulfill the rear guard roll should it fall to you. Consider it in your deployment, and stand ready to move to face the flanking enemy as the others move forward.

8. Always regroup before entering another phase of the battle.
Don’t get carried away with small victories. Whatever kills might be earned in chasing are offset by the fatigue it cost you. If you get a moment to breath, take it and regroup.

9. Always keep some units ready to help a team mate if needed.
Be ready and looking for the need long before it happens. It will take you time to get there.

10. Always consider that the battle will be long and difficult.
Keep an eye on your energy bars, and always consider fatigue a major factor in you plans. And never underestimate our enemy, no matter who they are. Consider all who oppose you, heavily armed, and extremely dangerous.

[Kanamori]

How you should march your troops up and engage in stituation five really depends on circumstances, although in all the cases I can think of, it is best to get your troops up as fast as you can. If they move to intercept while you are going up the hill, try to get 4 maneuvered so that it has hill advantage to D, if that cannot be done, at least get 4 to meet D so that neither unit have the hill advantage. If you are forced to meet D head-on w/ unit 4, take three up above it and have it fighting down the hill w/ unit 4 against D. Maneuver 1 and 2 so that they are near the fighting of 3, 4, and D. Ideally, as those units are getting engaged, 3 and 4 are finishing up and you can use advantage in morale and the hill and should handily win... If they do not move to intercept you as you march up the hill, try to maneuver to any hill advantage, which would probably amount to you getting up faster and cutting them off, which is what they should be trying to do to you. If it is a team game, and your teammates have decent situations, abandon the hill altogether and go 3-2 or whatever is the most favorable advantage numerically.

This however is largely in light of my MTW: VI experiences, so it may not apply as well to RTW.

[AquaLurker]

Swift focus attack. Since both side has equal quality of troops and terrian is simply mundane, that what you do.

Which every side, flank, or center come into contact first, crush it with the fullest of your troops and continue to do so to the others. If your enemy remains in active and split his troops as shown, take your own initiative and hit the weakest part, crush them one by one.

It is a simple theory, when you enemy is equal in strength, do not split your force.

[Rodion Romanovich]

This is an interesting topic. I believe the responses I'd have chosen have already been said, but I'd like to ask a nother question: if you'd be the red player, and the enemy would be the blue and responding in above mentioned ways, what would be your counter-response?

(All flanks below are from blue's perspective)
1. blue responding by striking left flank hard - if blue amasses troops on one flank, try to move own line towards that direction to present a straight line, while at the same time rushing the flank force in. Alternatively, retreat the line backwards to the right, while rotating slightly to keep it facing the direction where blue is.

2. This one is tricky for blue. I'd say strike one flank hard. The best response from red is then to rotate the line struck to face the enemy, then widen it in order to form a good pinning force. Perhaps making a miniature of formation 3. If blue sends one delaying force to the other flank force, there's a tough choice between sending some of the troops to support his outnumbered men or using an entire half of his force to crush the small delaying force before sending his delayed troops into the rear (hopefully) of the enemy before the pinning half of his army is routed. The choice depends on how fast-killing the troops are, i.e. if the outnumbered force can last long enough until the reinforcements arrive.

Another possible response for blue on the split up in two forces is to form a wedge like formation bulging towards the enemy, but it's dangerous as it usually results in surrounding in one way or another. However, if there's supporting cavalry it's a valid option for the infantry line, in fact it's sometimes the best for the infantry to do, as it's the best way of avoiding presenting the rear or flank of a pinned own force to the enemy force. What should red do in response? Well, red can't get supporting cavalry into position very fast, so I'd say red is in most trouble as any attempt to cavalry charge in support will be replied to with a blue cavalry charge to the rear of the red.

3. This formation is very, very strong in infantry to infantry combat. I'd say the best response to it is red's formation in situation 2. If we mix in cavalry, any infantry formation that's as wide as red's formation in situation 3 works for blue, as long as a cavalry charge can hit the middle rear of the enemy line. Without cavalry, using formation 2 is the best. Since formation 3 is usually so effective, the opponent is seldom eager to break it, and may wait longer until doing so in my experience. That's usually enough to hit both flanks of the enemy. The enemy will usually not be able to reform into any good counter-formation quickly enough. If cavalry is involved on both sides, I'd recommend blue to use a thin line all the way, then keep half of the rest of the infantry in reserve behind the line. Then move all cavalry and half the reserve infantry around one of the flanks, using the other half of the reserve infantry to delay an enemy cavalry or other flanking attempt.

What red can and should do is be prepared to leave this formation quickly at the slighest trace of such acts from blue.

4. Flanker deployed in a valley means it's great to use the hitting of the enemy flank with much of the force kept in reserve and it's flank folded backwards. Flanker in valley must rush in order to not arrive too late, and rushing will make him tired.

What should red do? Red should never be in this situation unless the advantage of flanking is huge, i.e. if the flanking troop is a very special type of skirmishing or harassing unit. Red will always be at a disadvantage from this situation unless the unit in the valley can be a tempting trap that makes the enemy send much of their troops down into the valley. Then red attacks outnumbered blue left on the hill, then turns to fight the blue downhill. Against a good opponent, red should never have tried flanking with the valley unless using it as some type of bait.

5. Enemy flanker deployed on hill. This will most likely turn out to become a race for the high ground. As red already has more troops in place on the hill, he has a slight advantage. Blue will should try to get the high ground or retreat so far away from the high ground that red can't fire missiles or anything from it, and must leave it in order to threaten blue. Red's response to the first is to fight the climbing blue with red formation in situation 3 or similar (the height advantage is added the the powerfulness of that formation). If blue tries to use the counter for formation 3 here, red will recive assistance from the other red troops climbing the hill soon, so as long as they try to present a front and no flank to the climbing enemy they should be fine. If artillery is involved in the fight, then red should definitely have deployed it all on the hill, both because of the range advantage, and because of the temptation it means to the enemy to rush the hill rather than choose the more sensible option of retreating out of missile range from the hill.

[The Hun]

All are very obvious.

[RabidGibbon]

Whilt many sound and effective stratergies have been mentioned the old classic of cunningly hiding your cavalry on top of each other and then simply charging forward has yet to be mentioned I see.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I have a question about the situations:

who's on offense?

[Vanya]

GAH!

Vanya is here to help.

Vanya sez...

1. Select all units, double-click on enemy general. Then sit back and let the rout begin! Best done if youz have some popcorn and sake handy for the spectacle!

2. If youz choose to not do #1, then youz must do #2. Pick a enemy unit -- any unit -- and tell yourself youz taking it down to Chinatown! Pound two of your own units down its throat while the rest guard your flanks. Don't bother too much with what they do, for they will be too focused on their own pain to give a rat's arse about the songs of joy your reserves are chanting in the tulips!

And no matter what youz do, youz must obey the golden rule of war:

CUT HEADS OFF!

GAH!

[Orda Khan]

I agree with Vanya

.....Orda

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Situation 3

Personally I would hit the center (where it is weak) as hard as I could with full force. Rout the center and I think you're pretty much good to go...

It would depend on unit types though, because if it were a phalanx engagement it would take too long and the enemy flanks could swoop down and get you.

Situation 4

Move your forces offset to the left from the enemies. Hit them and curve move them backwards towards the hill. Even if they get rienforcement they're going downhill

[Squirrel_of_hatred]

On every circumstance the opposing army has his force to some degree separated and on one occasion the centre line made thin to strengthen the flanks ala the battle of marathon.

i would shorthen my army's length slightly in order to make it more manouverable advance and at the right time quickly move towards the left of number 1 (red)and have my troops then advance at an angle quickly routing number 1 due to the increased numbers at that time from my army's current numerical advantage, although the opposing army can respond it will be too late for them to make any difference as beacause their line is so long it has less manouverability than mine therefore a domino effect will occur as one unit becomes overpowered at a time.


------------------[1]----red)->--1------------2------------3--------------------------4
------------------- [2]-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------[3]--------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------[4]----------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------(red)--------[1]-------[2]-------[3]-----[4]

you can see blue will advance quickly from the centre position to the right red flank at an angle then move in to destroy red cohort 1 the enemy red cohorts will have too much ground to cover to support its individual cohorts and 4 red has nothing to flank and a long journey to support its own army who will rout one at a time. Ive used this before against longer lines and can prove it via replay if requested.

Interestingly a similar tactic was used to beat the spartans .

My 2 cents

Celtic_Tiger....

[L'Impresario]

Well, this is essentially one of the most standard warfare tactics. I also mentioned the same, as well as other posters. To be specific -still in broad strokes tho-, Epameinondas and the theban army used it successfully vs the Spartans. But it's basic principles hold some truth even in our days.

Ofcourse it's easy to outline, but the varying battlefield situations can make simple things extremely hard and complicated.

[Squirrel_of_hatred]

Of course implementing such a move is not easy with an opponent who will move to negate this.

A shorter battle line will take less time to wheel around though and i based my theroy on the reasoning that the enemy line will hold it's formation and length.

In an online battle its whoolly unlikely that people will allow themselves to be compromised like this i agree. In which case i use skirmishers to hold the line facing forward while my infantry line executes the above tactic. The replay of this is available in the heavengames(RTW) downloads section under mailed celtic fist.

[SaintBlackAdder]

Gah just rush them and if doesnt work blame it on the team m8s