Multi-culturalism

[Duke Malcolm]

We (in Britain, at least) are constantly told that multi-culturalism is a good thing. Now, I would have no problem with that, if only it could explain to me why. Millions, if not thousands of millions of public money is spent on schemes promoting the concept of multi-culturalism (not that this does anything, though, except perhaps make some already liberally-minded people violently anti-racist).
I do not see an advantage in it, since it dilutes our own culture, and makes people feel extraordinarily and unreasonably guilty for the Empire.
I believe, that while keeping some of their own culture, immigrants should generally integrate with the nation that they are moving to, and that the nation should not adapt itself too much for the immigrants.

What do the Orgahs (which seems to be the commonly accepted term for the subjects of TosaInu) think of multi-culturalism?

Some links:

One Scotland

Wikipedia Definition thereof

[TinCow]

Learning someone else's culture allows you to understand that person better. It allows you to better imagine yourself in their shoes and thus to approach problems with that person from a better baseline. This will in turn reduce misunderstandings and generate a more tolerant society. At least, that's my opinion.

[Goofball]

I believe, that while keeping some of their own culture, immigrants should generally integrate with the nation that they are moving to, and that the nation should not adapt itself too much for the immigrants.

That's more or less what multiculturalism is. There's nothing saying that the incumbent culture should have to adapt itself to the new culture; that's just the way the intolerant try to portray multiculturalism to try to turn people against it.

Multiculturalism should be many cultures existing peacefully together and being able to experience the better points of each other's customs, foods, celebrations, philosophies, etc, without necessarily blending together.

But I agree with you to the extent that where aspects of the immigrant culture are unacceptable to the incumbent culture (i.e. Islamic extremists beating their wives or Sikhs carrying bloody great swords around in public), those aspects of the immigrant culture must be left behind.

[Lazul]

Normally I wouldnt touch this subject with a 5 feet stick, atleast not in Sweden, but seeing as im on the org atm, I guess i can give it a shot.
The problem in Sweden concerning multi-culturalism is that "the once in charge" spend so much energy to integrate foriegn culture into our own that the "swedish culture" as a cultural being is fading in the eyes of the people.
Now one thing everyone have to have in mind is that every culture through out history is a mix of lesser cultures and is in constant change allways.

But to focus on what the little man feels about his culture being in change, what he fells aout it. I mean here in Sweden when i was younger and was in the earlier stages of school (public) we had many albanians, serbs etc in our classes. At first, nobody had any problem with it, I personally thought it would be fun to get to know someone who wasnt swedish by birth.

BUT, since politicians on all levels tend to be retards they had to think about what they could do "fix the racial issue" bla bla bla. The amount of flags being waved around diminished, then we were not allowed to sing our national anthem in school, not even during graduation.
Im not even a nationalist, atleast I dont call myself that, but I still felt hurt by the changes and so on.

I think, that if politicans dont interfer, dont make cultural borders and national identity a big issue, the people wont make it a big issue either. If the people are left alone to deal with cultural issues the world will take a more "regional" shape instead of "national". in other words, regional identity (seeing myself as a part of Halland or Halmstad first, Sweden second) will be more important then national.

[solypsist]

why multiculturalism is important: since when is knowing less a favorable option?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Multiculturalism, as supported by the left in America is bad. It is not about 'knowing more' or any other such nonsense. It is used as yet another oppurtunity to destroy American culture as some bad evil monster and portraying the immigrant's culture as perfect. We have to change anything that might be offensive. They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Crazed Rabbit

[TinCow]

It is used as yet another oppurtunity to destroy American culture as some bad evil monster and portraying the immigrant's culture as perfect.

I understand what you are saying, but American culture in particular IS immigrant culture. Nearly all of our most popular foods are slightly altered versions of other nations' traditions. Our art, our vehicles, our architecture and even our language are heavily based upon foreign influence. I think this domestic dilution of the native culture can certainly be a problem in places like Sweden, France and Italy. However I think the US is very different in these regards and can't quite be discussed in the same way.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I understand what you are saying, but American culture in particular IS immigrant culture. Nearly all of our most popular foods are slightly altered versions of other nations' traditions. Our art, our vehicles, our architecture and even our language are heavily based upon foreign influence. I think this domestic dilution of the native culture can certainly be a problem in places like Sweden, France and Italy. However I think the US is very different in these regards and can't quite be discussed in the same way.

Right you are. And I'd love other immigrants adding to the national culture we have here. But multiculturalism isn't that. The leftists want american culture to fold in completely whenever its different from an immigrant culture.

Crazed Rabbit

[solypsist]

the irony of this statement against multiculturalism is delicious, indeed.

They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Crazed Rabbit

[English assassin]

Multiculturalism as it has been practiced in the UK is not a good thing IMHO. We do need a bedrock of shared common history and values, which, by all means, can then be overlaid with engaging cultural differences. (Yes yes, I know, its the ethnic restaurant school of multiculturalism). But not teaching British history or literature in favour of teaching some sort of global mish mash is a mistake: its exactly the immigrant populations who most need that sort of teaching. If someone says (as they do) isn't London terrible and violent, if you have read Dickens or studied the victorians you will know that the answer is "not any more its not." No disrespect to African history or what have you but it doesn't give you that sort of useful background to life in the UK.

And permitting immigrant communities to, say, keep their wives and daughters in subjugation, not learning English, not working and so on, that was not a very good idea.

[Goofball]

the irony of this statement against multiculturalism is delicious, indeed.

They encourage people not to assimilate into the country but stay in isolated cultural groups.

Exactly. That's not multiculturalism.

CR, who exactly are the "they" that you are referring to?

[TinCow]

Right you are. And I'd love other immigrants adding to the national culture we have here. But multiculturalism isn't that. The leftists want american culture to fold in completely whenever its different from an immigrant culture.

Crazed Rabbit

I'm not quite sure I know who you're referring to. I'm pretty liberal as are many of my friends and I don't know anyone who actively wants to substitute our culture with a foreign one. Like everyone else we have good and bad aspects.

However, regardless of who you are referring to, I do not believe it is something to be concerned about in the US. We actively absorb new cultures and integrate their traits into ours whether they like it or not. I can't imagine that any group of people would ever be able to overcome the well-established melting pot of America. Even the massive influx of Latin American immigrants over the past several decades has done little more than boost the consumption of salsa and given us some new blood in the entertainment and sports industries. The current prevalence of Spanish through the nation is simply the reflection of a new group that has yet to full assimilate. It took a few generations for the major influxes of Italians, Irish, Germans, Greeks, etc. to drop their languages as well.

If you want to see a nation that HAS lost their cultural identity, look at Singapore. They systematically knocked down nearly everything of any historical significance. The few old things that remain were preserved largely due to British influence rather than domestic. Singapore is now a soulless techno-city which I dare to say has no culture at all beyond capitalism.

[Radier]

I as a Swede can´t possible vote yes because the integration here is totally unmanagible because the system sucks and we take in so many immegrants every year. There are immegrants here who have lived here for years and don´t know a word swedish. This multiculturalism do more bad than good.

My friend gor robbed, my cousins friend grouperaped. My other cousine´s boyfriend was allmost beaten to death. One guy at work were stabbed in the back, and some guys stole my expensive bicykle a time ago. All these crimes where comitted by NON-europeans, mostly from the arabic countries. Why shall I be happy with multiculturalism? The only thing multiculturalism has brought to me are these things and the motivation too learn how to fight...

If I want polish culture I travel there. If I want algerian culture I travel there. How fun would the world be if there where the same mixed culture everywhere?

I have some immegrant friends who are fully integrated to the swedish society and our culture. That is million times better than the other nonintegrated immegrants I have met.

Those of you who voted yes, I would like to see you settle a year in the gettos of example Rosengård or Rinkeby in Sweden. Then we shall se what you think...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Exactly. That's not multiculturalism.

CR, who exactly are the "they" that you are referring to?

Its's how multiculturalism is supported in the US, by them, aka leftists-not liberals or democrats, but the very left wing radicals.

the irony of this statement against multiculturalism is delicious, indeed.

You don't understand the paradox of multiculturalism in the US, obviously.

We actively absorb new cultures and integrate their traits into ours whether they like it or not.

I know. My point is that the radical supporters of 'multiculturalism' don't want this to happen. They want our society to be a non-integrated one with multiple cultures. They are trying to prevent the assimilation.

Crazed Rabbit

[solypsist]

being blindly dismissive doesn't strengthen any argument.

You don't understand the paradox of multiculturalism in the US, obviously.

<<lives in NYC - I think I know a little about living around people with different cultures. That and my extensive world travel have informed me pretty well about integration of peoples in different (global) societies.

[Duke Malcolm]

One does not need to live in a multi-cultural society to learn about other cultures. There is such a thing as world travel, i.e. travelling across the world, experiencing other cultures. The simple argument of knowing more is weak in itself.

[solypsist]

oh nevermind. kids.

[Crazed Rabbit]

being blindly dismissive doesn't strengthen any argument.

I've yet to see any argument at all from you.

Crazed Rabbit

[Duke Malcolm]

being blindly dismissive doesn't strengthen any argument.

oh nevermind. kids.

Hypocrisy is a terrible thing...

[solypsist]

my argument is that simpy keeping one's options narrow is not productive.

now i have to head to the airport - Portland to NYC, an all day trip. Sheesh.

have fun guys.

I've yet to see any argument at all from you.

Crazed Rabbit

[Ser Clegane]

One does not need to live in a multi-cultural society to learn about other cultures. There is such a thing as world travel, i.e. travelling across the world, experiencing other cultures. The simple argument of knowing more is weak in itself.

Actually not everybody can just jump on a planer and travel to experience whichever culture he/she is interested in - not a very realistic alternative in many cases.

Multi-culturalism means that I can go to the wedding of Turkish friends and experience a part of their culture because they do it "their way".
It means that I can enjoy the annual African/Carribean festival in our neighbourhood.

It does not necessarily mean that these people live in some kind of parallel societly that does not overlap with tha "native" society.

Integration is not equivalent to giving up your own culture - integration also requires both sides the "native culture" and the "immigrant culture" to be willing to integrate

[Crazed Rabbit]

why multiculturalism is important: since when is knowing less a favorable option?

my argument is that simpy keeping one's options narrow is not productive.

Looks like two different arguments to me. I'm all in favor of knowing a lot, but multiculturalism is not necessary for that.

Crazed Rabbit

[Goofball]

Looks like two different arguments to me. I'm all in favor of knowing a lot, but multiculturalism is not necessary for that.

Crazed Rabbit

No, but it is certainly not an impediment to knowledge either.

[Geoffrey S]

I like multi-culturalism. There are so many things I enjoy which originate from areas outside my locale area it's hard to know where to start; various types of food, many types of music, different views to be discovered through converstations with people from a different background... as far as I'm concerned the benefits of multi-culturalism far outweigh potential negative aspects.

And permitting immigrant communities to, say, keep their wives and daughters in subjugation, not learning English, not working and so on, that was not a very good idea.

Agreed. Also, I don't view this as multi-culturalism as they don't add anything to the British culture; this kind of thing is a problem, not due to multi-culturalism but the way it's painted as such by numerous left-wing politicians who bleat 'racism' at the least mention of making sure immigrants become a productive member of their host country, along with enforcing at least a basic adaption to common law and principles.

One does not need to live in a multi-cultural society to learn about other cultures. There is such a thing as world travel, i.e. travelling across the world, experiencing other cultures. The simple argument of knowing more is weak in itself.

Bear in mind that this is a privilege of richer people who can afford such travel, who frequently are more open-minded to other cultures relatively speaking, possibly due to trips to culturally different places. Many people can't afford such expensive trips and end up going on holiday locally: Dutch go camping in Holland, English down to the coast of Britain, and in America there is a tendency to stay in the US for holidays made easier due to the vast areas to choose from.

[English assassin]

Multi-culturalism means that I can go to the wedding of Turkish friends and experience a part of their culture because they do it "their way".
It means that I can enjoy the annual African/Carribean festival in our neighbourhood.

Not to be dismissive, SC, but that is the "ethnic restaurant" multiculturalism I referred to. If multiculturalism means spicy food and colourful clothes then you can hardly be against it.

If, on the other hand, it means asian girls who fall in love with a white man having to leave their homes at night, move to another city under a new name, and never contact anyone in their family again because if they are tracked down their male relatives will kill them because in their culture they have dishonoured the family, then I call it bollocks. (And that scenario happens in England today.) If it means people who have been here decades speakign no or next to know English, (and expecting things to be translated into their language), I call that bollocks too. And, perhaps more controversially, if it means coming into a secular democratic society, and then complaining that that society is not run on religious grounds (grounds dicated from other countries, what is more, and without the benefit of the sort of historical and textual analysis that, say, christians or jews give to their holy books), I call that double bollocks.

Actually, Jews give a good example. No one doubts they have a powerful cultural identity, they practice their religion, and they get on with life in British society. Some of the more orthodox play little or no role in wider society because they think their religion forbids it, but they do no one any harm in so doing. So yeah, multiculturalism of that sort of culture is absolutely fine.

Good food too.

[Lemur]

Multiculturalism is neither good nor bad, it just is. There are plusses and minuses to it, like most phenomena in this world. What's amusing is to see certain leftist types promoting it as a cure for all that ails ya, and then to watch the rightist types foam at the mouth, declaring that it's a subversion of all that is good and right in America.

Needless to say, not only are both wrong, but wildly overreacting.

I'm sorry to hear that Britain is spending gobs of cash on the subject, however. I've always felt that these sorts of cultural issues sort themselves out over time, without a lot of government interference necessary. You don't need an English First initiative to keep the land pure, and you don't need a ministry of diversity to keep the game fair. Things work out. Just you watch.

[solypsist]

(let's hear it for wifo airports!)

okay i commented on multiculturalism in general, when what KM was referring to were programs by gov'ts and was lamenting these as obscuring the current citizen-culture in place. i should have been more specific - sorry if my replies were confusing, i'm only human.

so allow me to get this topic back on track a little:

the fact is that immigration from third world countries to industrialized nations is increasing, like it or not. and your government has some options. one of these options is to try to make its citizens aware enough so that everyone plays nice.

you may not like the current trend of immigration, or you may. however you or I feel about it does not change it from happening, now or later. you can lock yourself in a room and study from books and websites, but then expect a reality you're unprepared for when you walk out the door. or you can fight it, in which case see the part about "does not change it from happening." or you can do what humans do best, which is adapt - this does not mean "losing your culture" or anything so absurd, i just means being aware of differences in how people think in real-life situations that apply to your life.

people in america have been complaining about immigration since the colonies were founded, so it's no surprise to hear americans go on about it.

[Ser Clegane]

Not to be dismissive, SC, but that is the "ethnic restaurant" multiculturalism I referred to. If multiculturalism means spicy food and colourful clothes then you can hardly be against it.

I think what I meant goes a bit beyond the "ethnic restaurant" - when I talk about e.g., the wedding, it means that multi-culturalism that you actually participate in the life of the "other" culture and let it enrich your personal life (and that goes in both directions).

What you describe later in your post is exactly what I said multi-culturalism should not necessarily be

that these people live in some kind of parallel societly that does not overlap with the "native" society.

this is certainly something most of would agree on that it should not happen within a multi-cultural society, as it negates the positive aspects of different cultures living together.

[Byzantine Prince]

No, multi-culturalism is not good because it's very devisive. I think when people bring their cultures to a new country they should preserve what they think is the best of that culture from which they came, and mix it in with what they think is the best of the new. Also the natives should learn the best of that culture and also combine it with theirs to create a better one. That's how it should work.

There is no point in having a country with a million different cultures that don't get along. There should be a selective melting pot for both foreign and native sides. That is the only way they can both survive and become better.

[TinCow]

I think part of the problem in this thread is that we're not all talking about the same definition of multi-culturalism. We seem to have two seperate schools here:

1) Multiculturalism is the addition of cultural traits from outside peoples into the existing national culture. Essentially adding new aspects to the existing ones.

2) Multiculturalism is the independant existence of multiple cultures in the same nation.

Most people seem to be saying that #1 is good and #2 is bad, but we're using the terms differently and getting confused.