Impious Franks

[Viking]

I`m having a problem with conversion to christianity as the Franks as I cannot get any christian generals. The big majority of my population is christian, yet all generals that I can adopt is pagan, same for all those that I get proposed for marrying my daughters, and not too surprisingly all my sons are pagan too. It might be sensible that all family members born into the family are pagan since their fathers were pagan, but not that other generals are. This must be a bug.
Is there any solution to this? Does it help me to bribe christian family members from other factions and let them have offspring? Any ideas?

[player1]

Ok, I'll repost some VnV triggers to explain things:

Part of Man of Hour triggers:

Trigger LesserGeneralOfferedForAdoption4
    WhenToTest LesserGeneralOfferedForAdoption

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Christian >= 1
          and Trait Pagan = 0
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  100 
    Affects ChristianProselytism  1  Chance  2 
    Affects ChristianPoverty  1  Chance  2 
    Affects HatesPagan  1  Chance  1 
    Affects GoodSiegeDefender  1  Chance  20 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger LesserGeneralOfferedForAdoption5
    WhenToTest LesserGeneralOfferedForAdoption

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Pagan >= 1
          and Trait Pagan = 0
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  100 
    Affects HatesChristianity  1  Chance  2 
    Affects PaganDisillusion  1  Chance  5

As you see such generals with always have faith of faction leader.


Triggers for those that come of age:

Trigger birth_religion_follow_my_leader_1
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Christian >= 1

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  75 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger birth_religion_follow_my_leader_2
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Pagan >= 1

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  75 

In 75% cases they go like faction leaders.

Trigger birth_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_1
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Pagan = 0
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  30 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger birth_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_2
    WhenToTest CharacterComesOfAge

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0
          and Trait Pagan = 0

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PaganDisillusion  1  Chance  8

If that doesn't happen, then they'll be 30% Christian and rest Pagan.


Adopted generals (includes recruited generals and candidates for adoption, but not man of the hour):

Trigger adoption_religion_follow_my_leader_1
    WhenToTest OfferedForAdoption

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Christian >= 1

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  79 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger adoption_religion_follow_my_leader_2
    WhenToTest OfferedForAdoption

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Pagan >= 1

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  79 

In 79% of cases they do like faction leader.

Trigger adoption_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_1
    WhenToTest OfferedForAdoption

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Pagan = 0
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  30 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger adoption_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_2
    WhenToTest OfferedForAdoption

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0
          and Trait Pagan = 0

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PaganDisillusion  1  Chance  11

If not they are in 30% christian, rest are pagans.


And marriage propsal triggers:

Trigger marriage_religion_follow_my_leader_1
    WhenToTest OfferedForMarriage

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Christian >= 1

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  70 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger marriage_religion_follow_my_leader_2
    WhenToTest OfferedForMarriage

    Condition FactionLeaderTrait Pagan >= 1

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  70 

In 70% of cases they do like faction leader.

Trigger marriage_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_1
    WhenToTest OfferedForMarriage

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Pagan = 0
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0

    Affects Christian  1  Chance  30 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger marriage_religion_barbarian_except_saxons_2
    WhenToTest OfferedForMarriage

    Condition CultureType barbarian
          and not FactionType saxons
          and Trait Christian = 0
          and Trait Zoroastrian = 0
          and Trait Pagan = 0

    Affects Pagan  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PaganDisillusion  1  Chance  10

If not 30% christian, rest pagan.


As you see, it's tough to get christian generals if having no christian leader (around 7-8%). Also man of hour generals will never be christian without such faction leader.

Still it's not impossible, so when you get one, make him heir immediately and hope that faction leader will die soon.


Anyway, faction leader religion is only important factior here.

[Viking]

Ok, then it appears that that bribing a young christian family member and setting him as faction heir is the best solution, otherwise I`ll won the game before I`ve gotten a single christian general.
The religion of a new general, at least recruited, married or adopted into the family should be decided by the dominant religion in that particular region or the faction as a whole rather than the faction leader, IMO.

Thanks.

[TinCow]

I recently converted my Franks en-mass. I got a single Chrisitan family member via marriage and I made him the heir. I then suicided the King, making the Christian the leader. While coverting the provinces, I assembled all of my pagan family members into a single force (they were all terrible anyway) and attacked anything I could find until they were almost all gone. Due to the low number of family members, I immediately received a large number of Man of the Hour and adoptions, all of which were Christian. No problems with the family now.

[Sir Chauncy]

Just out of interest, is their any real advantage to making your faction one particular religion?

I have noticed people complaining about it for a while now and the desperate drive towards Christianity is confusing as I can see no real benifits: the pagan temples offer particular bonuses but Christianity offers one of these...

[TinCow]

Christianity provides better order/happiness bonuses than Pagan. In addition, the Franks can only build paladins if they are Christian.

[lars573]

Just out of interest, is their any real advantage to making your faction one particular religion?

I have noticed people complaining about it for a while now and the desperate drive towards Christianity is confusing as I can see no real benifits: the pagan temples offer particular bonuses but Christianity offers one of these...

The Christian church gives a large happiness bonus, medium law bonus, and a decent population growth bonus. The Monestary buildings give more happiness plus as the Franks you gets priests and paladins (and a veterancy bonus for them too).

[Sir Chauncy]

Ah right, that explains something then. I still don't get how you get paladins though, aren't the Frankish family members all Paladin bodyguards anyway ?

My head hurts, I think I am going to have a sit down.

[TinCow]

Ah right, that explains something then. I still don't get how you get paladins though, aren't the Frankish family members all Paladin bodyguards anyway ?

My head hurts, I think I am going to have a sit down.

Yes, the general unit is called "Paladin Bodyguards" but there is also a seperate cavalry unit called just plain "Paladins". They are not a general unit and can be trained in two turns once you get the Monastery, or whatever the second level of the hermitage is called. They are better than Noble Warriors.

[dismal]

you gets priests.

Are people using priests? Effectively? I have only played one christian campaign (as ERE) and didn't bother to make them.

[Viking]

Well, they look somewhat cool, but effeciently I don`t think is possible. I haven`t trained them as the Franks as they take 2 turns to train, and that every unit slot is important when you play on VH/H and faces uber experienced Allemanni soldiers and Lomabrd Berserkers.
But on the other hand morale is my problem, so I might actually give them a try.

[TinCow]

I always try and include a unit of priests/monk in my main armies. I find they are very useful in keeping up morale on the main line while my general moves with the flanking force. If they weren't there, my main line would break more easily.

[Dutch_guy]

haven't used them a lot, actually I can count the times I have on 1 hand.

So I use them very, very rarely.

Does someone know what the morale bonus is they give , is it compareable with a low star commander / general ?

[lars573]

Are people using priests? Effectively? I have only played one christian campaign (as ERE) and didn't bother to make them.

Every chance I get. For the role they are mean't to play they are very effective. I was always chuckling to myself while people here were wailing to no end about camp followers as battle field units (priests, druids, screaching women) but they work so well their unhistoricalness is never on my mind. Having support units such as priests in your battle line turns it it to stone.

[The Stranger]

Are people using priests? Effectively? I have only played one christian campaign (as ERE) and didn't bother to make them.

and you get paladins/burgundi lancers etc...wich are more important though if youre lombardii i wouldnt know wether to choose berserkers or lancers

[kataphraktoi]

at least the Byzantines with priests is historical enough

[Kraxis]

Are people using priests? Effectively? I have only played one christian campaign (as ERE) and didn't bother to make them.

When as the ERE I usually try to have a single unit of Priests with me everywhere I send a large army or one that is supposed to hold an important position. And of cours I love to see them rip routers apart... There is just something morbid about seeing priests clubber people to death with their crosses. Luckily CA has made Priests very slow so onlt seldomly do they get a proper chance at this.

[lars573]

That's the thing about Priests/monks they really aren't mean't to fight. I think of them a morale booster that happens to be able to fight hand to hand.

[Trithemius]

Every chance I get. For the role they are mean't to play they are very effective. I was always chuckling to myself while people here were wailing to no end about camp followers as battle field units (priests, druids, screaching women) but they work so well their unhistoricalness is never on my mind. Having support units such as priests in your battle line turns it it to stone.

I don't know if they are entirely unhistorical? There is a a great little anecdote in the WRG DBM list book 4 that talks about a pagan commander deciding that people who prayed to the gods for him to lose were not noncombatants.

It probably makes more sense that shrines give morale (or experience) bonuses to troops recruited in settlements that have them built, but battlefield shrieking is probably as close to operational level "psy ops" like standing on cliffs and shouting at approaching fleets as you can get, given the game's engine?

What makes me sad is that you cannot have priests running around as agents, converting family members (or being killed while trying to convert them) and proselytising in the provinces. Christian's has its evangelism, the pagan's have charismatic cultic leaders, and I suppose the Zoroastrian's must have a tradition of conversion to draw upon too (even if most of it took place rather early on).