JnR Gameplay

**antisocialmunky** · 10-30-2005, 21:57

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

ESSAY#2

Indeed. The modus operandi we've come to to dictate battle is that Yari armed infantry is going to be hard to defeat when not disarrayed. Units armed with the No Dachi and Naginata will have problems attacking Yari armed infantry.

Yari was the most common main weapon for a reason. It can keep enemies at bay and is primarily a stabbing weapon instead of a swinging weapon. While the No Dachi and Naginata can be used to stab(and I'm sure they were), it's not their primary function. Swinging weapons need room to be used but spears just need a direct line of sight to the target instead of arcs meaning that the Yari is the best directional weapon meaning that if the Yari cannot be flanked, it will have an advantage against swinging weapons.

Also, the Yari units will be bigger since the Yari was easier to use than the exotic Heavy Naginatas(Our Samurai Model) and rarer No Dachis. So out numbered and outranged, offensive infantry will be stopped frontally by the Yari infantry in formation.

However, on the flanks and rear of a Yari formation, swinging weapons will fight other swinging weapons and due to the superor range and power of the specialized offensive units, the Naginata and No Dachi.

We will also have three types of yari. Te, Normal, and Nagae. Nagae Yari carried by Ashigaru is long but mostly static because 18-21 foot long pikes are not weapons of precision. They'll be able to hold units at bay but not inflict serious casualties and be very vunerable to flanking by samurai due to their ashigaru fighting skills and their slow down caused by carrying unwieldy pikes. Thus, they will not be able to kill anything but won't be killed by anything head on.

The normal Yari that Samurai and levy ashigaru are armed with represent the average Yari length. They are the all around unit with good over all stats.

The Te Yari used by the Samurai is a short pike that could parry other weapons. These guys will be able to form the main battleline but the range of their Te Yari will put them at a slight disadvantage against other yari units even with the attack bonus of the Te Yari but they will be about par with normal Yari units 1 on 1. They wont be able to charge or take a charge as well though. One the other hand, their attack bonus make them good flankers in formation.

On top of that, we'll have Yumi units whose primary purpose is to disorder a formation and then flank with swords.

It's all very situational with the infantry types.

After the introduction of firearms. Flanking the main battle line will be more of a challenge. We are going to make it so that the specialized offensive units(naginata/no dachi) will be stopped with teppo while the Yari units remain intact so they'll be functionally obsolete when that happens.

So basically the match ups that go for foot infantry, cavalry have different theories governing them:

Legend:

X = good
(X) = not good/not equal
- = canceled out
O = bad
(O) = not bad/not equal

Ka=Katana
ND=No Dachi
Na=Naginata
NY=Nagae Yari
Ya=Yari
TY=Te Yari

WEAPON MATCHUPS

Column vs Row:

---|Ka |ND |Na |NY |Ya |TY |
Ka | - | X | X | - | X | X |
ND | O | - |(X)| - | X |(X)|
Na | O |(O)| - | - |(X)| X |
NY | - | - | - | - | - | - |
Ya | O | O |(O)| - | - |(O)|
TY | O |(O)| O | - |(X)| - |

eg. Katana < Yari

Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

ESSAY #3

Well, with arrows, we'd make a knock back animation that staggers the unit so those hit will fall behind and then you'd be able to kill them with a ordered attack. Only the Yumi Samurai are meant to be actual killers. Yumi Ashigaru are there to provide blanket fire and disorder untis while the small units of Yumi Cavalry do both to a degree.

Yari unit spam armies won't be totally unpreventable so it's unrealistic to completely get rid of the tactic, just make it hard to pull off.

However, BI's 1.3 patch fixes the hitbox problem for RTW where attacking units hitting a defending unit's weapon kill both units. This fix means that weapon length will be a 'phantom' factor in defense. If a unit's weapon is long enough and it cant' be flanked, that unit cannot be attacked effectively.

Nagae Yari Ashigaru are going to be able to exploit this. They have 18 feet long pikes with the Oda version measuring 21 feet. They're there to hold a attacking unit. Their units are large and their pikes keep units from engaging them. They will be able to cancel out any unit it engages from the front. However, they are rather slow because they carry around a huge pike and vunerable to missile fire.

Yari Samurai on the other hand carry a short enough weapon so that casualties will be taken by attacker and defender. Te Yari Samurai is the most vunerable yari unit, but it can hold it's own.

The purpose of the Nagae is to stand and hold. The purpose of Te Yari and Yari is to battle for positional and material advantage. The purpose of Yumi, Teppo, and No Dachi and Naginata is to cooperate to undermine the job of the pervious two. The purpose of cavalry is to control initiative.

The conventional battleline will probably end up with the most defensive units holding the center to prevent it from caving in. Radiating outwards along the length of the line will be prograsively more offensive based units. The slow and enduring Nagae in the center, Yari and Te Yari clashing on the flanks with Naginata, No Dachi, and Cavalry operating on the extreme extents. Teppo units will move there after the battlelines are joined to defend.

Simply stated: battles will be decided on the flanks like real life.

After the initial exchange of teppo and rain of arrows, the center will be rather quiet with primarily units of Nagae Yari holding a long continuous portion -they being vunerable to flanking and it being sensible to consolidate them into one line to reduce flanking opportunities- of the line. Yumi units might be shooting into the fray to try and break the enemy or waiting as a reserve.

Moving outwards, Yari and Te Yari units, perhaps the odd Sohei, will be fighting each other. Whoever breaks first will be able to flank and undermine the center, caving the whole center inward, the ultimate goal of battle.

Teppo units sit on the flanks, firing at each other and raking the opposing flanks. In early, the No Dachi and Naginata would be flanking the enemy line, but the advent of Teppos make their job nearly obsolete since they accomplish the same thing but require less training and casualties. Charging Teppos may be done, but it will be costly; Nagashino being a prime example. The flanks will be very fluid.

Cavalry will be trying to circle wide and fight each other with the ultimate goal of causing enough fear ti start the rout of units. Takeda, possessing special shock cavalry with an additional morale reducing trait, are especially good for this.

Generals and the morale units shore up the line.

Or so the theory of this mod goes. :-p

Anyone have any opinions?

**antisocialmunky** · 10-31-2005, 23:09

What? No one likes to talk about strategy? Suggestions, historical data for the gameplay, the only part that really matters? :-p

**Kraxis** · 11-01-2005, 03:12

The problem is just that Japanese strategic setups were extremely complex...

All in all I think it makes sense what you have posted, but I wonder at what you mean about 'not attacking'? Very low attack, high defense?

**Alexander the Pretty Good** · 11-01-2005, 03:28

Sounds very fun to play - slower than vanilla RTW and more tactical than "fast rush, fast flank!!!11"

I know next to nothing about the history of Japanese warfare though.

**antisocialmunky** · 11-01-2005, 04:31

What exactly do you mean by " 'not attacking'? Very low attack, high defense?" I don't know what part of my analysis your'e refering to.

**smokey_jon_2000** · 12-03-2005, 18:30

I was wondering if you plan on making Yari's beat Katanas. I'm not sure if that's really correct. True, a well formed Yari line will have better range than a Katana. However, Yari's were rather unweildy, and a good swordsman could indeed use this to his advantage. I donno, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

**SwordsMaster** · 12-03-2005, 18:52

I have to agree here, swordsmen tended to use the gaps between the pikes to get close and personal with the pikemen where they had the advantage. That is what they did in Europe, thats why spanish pikemen had swords and I don't see why they wouldn't use a similar tactic in Japan under similar circumstances... Maybe the No-Dachi shuld have a bit of a restriction as their swords are very big and unwieldy...

**antisocialmunky** · 12-05-2005, 22:28

Well, all units carry swords so swords vs spears is obsolete and would be broken:

Yari was the most common main weapon for a reason. It can keep enemies at bay and is primarily a stabbing weapon instead of a swinging weapon. While the No Dachi and Naginata can be used to stab(and I'm sure they were), it's not their primary function. Swinging weapons need room to be used but spears just need a direct line of sight to the target instead of arcs meaning that the Yari is the best directional weapon meaning that if the Yari cannot be flanked, it will have an advantage against swinging weapons.

Also, the Yari units will be bigger since the Yari was easier to use than the exotic Heavy Naginatas(Our Samurai Model) and rarer No Dachis. So out numbered and outranged, offensive infantry will be stopped frontally by the Yari infantry in formation.

However, on the flanks and rear of a Yari formation, swinging weapons will fight other swinging weapons and due to the superor range and power of the specialized offensive units, the Naginata and No Dachi.

Naginata and No Dachi are the disrupting melee weapons.

**Drisos** · 04-26-2006, 15:29

Moving outwards, Yari and Te Yari units, perhaps the odd Sohei, will be fighting each other. Whoever breaks first will be able to flank and undermine the center, caving the whole center inward, the ultimate goal of battle.

Teppo units sit on the flanks, firing at each other and raking the opposing flanks. In early, the No Dachi and Naginata would be flanking the enemy line, but the advent of Teppos make their job nearly obsolete since they accomplish the same thing but require less training and casualties. Charging Teppos may be done, but it will be costly; Nagashino being a prime example. The flanks will be very fluid.

Cavalry will be trying to circle wide and fight each other with the ultimate goal of causing enough fear ti start the rout of units. Takeda, possessing special shock cavalry with an additional morale reducing trait, are especially good for this.

I'm very sorry if I sound rude but have you ever played any Total War Multiplayer?

"Teppo units on the flanks" - I think, they would be too far away from protection by Yari samurai if the enemy cavalry charges them.

"caving the whole center inward, the ultimate goal of battle." - I think the ultimate goal would be to break the enemy's morale.

"Cavalry will be trying to circle wide and fight each other" - why would they want to fight eachother? I think, they can and will be used to devastating effect by quickly circling round the fighting infantry and attacking them from the back.

**Revolting Friendship** · 04-26-2006, 21:15

"Teppo units on the flanks"

Well historically they moved in front of the main battle-lines, quite a bit ahead with small contingents of yari ashigaru to support against cavalry shocks. Basically skirmishing between the ahead troops could go on for quite some time and often took up the majority of battles. The progress of their fight for ground would affect the possible main clash between the great bodies of troops, however, often an army would withdraw even before that when the daimyo realized that they had been pushed into a losing position and a battle was most likely just going to be a waste of men.

However, if and when the main lines clash, I'm sure it made sense to send your skirmishers out to the flanks, since they would by then be withdrawn to the rear, free of locked battle. Then from the flanks they could either soften up the enemy lines, move further around to maybe charge home, or most likely, end up skirmishing enemy forces trying to do the same to you.

"caving the whole center inward, the ultimate goal of battle."

Breaking the enemies lines, either by folding up the flanks or punching through the center and seperate it would typically become the main objective once battle was joined because that was the foremost key to victory. By simply lining up against eachother and hoping your enemies would break first, like old-school greeks you would only waste men. So you tried to focus on various strategies to break their morale faster and more certain. Seeing your flanks being rolled up on you is one of the things that does this.

"Cavalry will be trying to circle wide and fight each other"

I think he means that often, if the enemy also has cavalry(they often do), he would use it to stop any flanking attempts, which may result in cavalry fighting it out before it's determined which side gets to flank or charge home.

I can't say I have played much TW multiplayer myself, only a little on LAN, however, having vanilla TW MP experience under your belt reveals little about insight into realistic battle-tactics. Often what would make sense in reality is comepletely useless in games because they model things unrealistically. Many elements that were all-important in real combat becomes a waste of time and things may be very simplified. Our mod will hopefully be designed so that you will be encouraged to use historical strategies(at least in MP) because the units will not be balanced after some simplified rock/paper/sissors-policy for a shallow RTS-experience, rather how armies were actually organized.

**Drisos** · 04-27-2006, 09:13

Oh I don't know for the historical part. I'm sure you all know much better how warfare was over there. But, I'm afraid, it will be hard, if not impossible for some of those elements to be used a lot with the TW engine